Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced Magicians? Give me a break...

[Dave Wiltrout]

It has become abundantly clear to me that more and more people are rating themselves in the beginner, intermediate, advanced stages of there magic. Now, this is actually a good thing for internet forums and such. It can help other people understand you better, which in turn makes it easier to set you on the right path.

But here's the problem I have with this type of magic oriented rating. The people who are saying this rating are just rating themselves. Which can never be 100% accurate. It just can't.

Now there can be a numerous amount of reasons for this. The ones off the top of my head are this. They don't want to be known as a beginner or "noob". They are wanting to advance as quickly as possible so saying they are better than they really are is apparently helping them. It's not, but this is what some will believe.

The other reason is this and the main reason for me typing this article. It's because they are basing it off of their technical skills and that's all. I see people all the time saying things like, "Oh, I am pretty advanced by they way, but I need help with these hecklers!" Now honestly, come on...Anyone that is "advanced" would not be having trouble with hecklers.

Hecklers are one of the main things when performing..If we are going to base someone off of terms beginner, intermediate, advance, then this person is in no way "advanced". They are in fact a beginner in whatever they are performing.

Method has very little, if anything, to do with how "advanced" someone is. Just because you can execute a riffle pass in whatever sense you believe "perfect" to be, does not make you intermediate, advanced or even beginnner. Actually if someone won an award for best sleight of hand, they can still be an absolute beginner...

Taken for granted, if you didn't mind being called an "intermediate trickster", then by all means go right ahead and label yourself that, but do not call yourself a magician just because you're doing pretty well with a double lift. Just don't...

Now, I don't believe any magician should label themselves as anyone of those "levels" in magic. I used the terms above strictly for clarity of my point I was trying to get across.

On to my second point...My own feelings on the words beginner, intermediate and advanced are this. I feel these terms are only relevant when you are in the beginning stages of practicing magic (if they are ever relevant). Once you become this so called "advanced", you won't, or shouldn't, be labeling yourself "advanced" anymore and will just be as you are, a magician.

So if you are saying "I am a beginner magician or intermediate magician", you're half wrong and are only tricking yourself. You will not be a magician until you stop labeling yourself in stages. Well at the very minimum, I will never consider someone a magician if they say this about themselves. You're either a magician or you are not. A trickster is not a magician...

I feel better now..

Discuss and comment..

-Dave-

 

[Asuka]

I hate it when people say "Comment" or "Discuss" at the end of their posts. What the hell else am I going to do?

Sorry by the way.

I think you're looking into it way too much. Those labels are just so other people can know where they stand and help them in the right way. For example:

Hi I'm a beginner and am wondering wether to get Ray Kosby's Impossible Card Magic.

The answer would be "hell no", and you would point him towards RRTCM or Mark Wilson's Complete Course In Magic.

It's just a simple way to let people know around about what your skill level is. Saves the typing for others.

 

[Dave Wiltrout]

Wow, what a nice opening reply. If you were really sorry wouldn't you think you would have just not said it to begin with?

Anyways, that was my whole point. At the very top of my post I said it is good in terms of understanding who someone is so you can help them, but the problem I said with that was that they don't even understand their own skill level and most of the time what they say to be is actually inaccurate.

I already went over everything you said and explained it. It was some of the first things said...Apparently by me saying discuss at the end was more relevant then I originally thought considering you posted questions and statements to things I already knew and openly stated my feelings about prior. So in all actuality, "discuss" needed to be said because the first response I got discussed absolutely nothing further than what I said and didn't help in the progression of the thread.

So once again, discuss..

-Dave-

 

[Asuka]

Well I guess it's just their problem if they don't understand what skill level they are at. Why would you lie to yourself? And especially over something like this where it will have massive effects to your magic later on.

You sort of explained why they have these labels and that they are a good idea in some cases but in others they are not such a good thing to have. Positives and negatives--just like most things in life. And if these people kid themselves and buy a book which has some knuckle busting stuff they will realise they need to learn the basics which means they will have to ask for adice again on what to get. That whole thing could have been avoided if they had just pointed out they are beginners in the first place.

 

[art-is-a-blast]

I agree with the idea, i also think that being a good magician isn't about being able to execute 50 tricks perfectly, but its about being able to present them in a right manner with an audience control. right now i'm trying to make a list of all the things i know and pick out the ones that people react to the most and perfecting the performance, because i was really careless about my performances lately.

 

[Krash]

Dave and Asuka...

Shane K.

 

[CDarklock]

You're right. There is "magician" and "not-magician". Anything else is irrelevant.

So complaining about how they rate themselves is counterproductive. The rating is pointless. Complaining that they don't do it right is a tautology - they can't do it right, because the concept itself is wrong. They cannot be taught this; they have to learn it themselves, in their own time.

Basically, if you care how you rate, or how anyone else rates... you're missing the point.

Discuss.

 

[Tomas Simkus]

Hi guys,

I see two ways:

First one would be rating by your dexterity. You have to rate it, because not everyone of us can do a double lift or pass. So if you buy a DVD that is FILLED with double lifts and you can't do it, you are like fish in dessert. For example I cannot do Rise move from Ray Rosbys(sp?) Impossible card magic. Man, my fingers will break

The second...you shouldn't rate magician by his presentation. Well, it is matter of taste. If you doesn't like green color, you aren't better or worse person at all. There are allways place for improvement, but rate this? no, I am against....
You might take the statistics, what kind of presentation gets better reactions, but not say to person: " My presentation and showmanship is better, because I use pass and talk about the UFO...."

One more thing....Did you notice that most of the top magicians emphesiese(sp?) the simplicity? So does this mean that dexterity wouldn't be important at all?

Tomas Simkus

 

[Dave Wiltrout]

I agree with the idea, i also think that being a good magician isn't about being able to execute 50 tricks perfectly, but its about being able to present them in a right manner with an audience control. right now i'm trying to make a list of all the things i know and pick out the ones that people react to the most and perfecting the performance, because i was really careless about my performances lately.

Glad you can see what I am getting at.

I always review my performances later on. Even if it was a false transfer with a coin for a cashier while I was checking out..

You're right. There is "magician" and "not-magician". Anything else is irrelevant.

So complaining about how they rate themselves is counterproductive. The rating is pointless. Complaining that they don't do it right is a tautology - they can't do it right, because the concept itself is wrong. They cannot be taught this; they have to learn it themselves, in their own time.

Basically, if you care how you rate, or how anyone else rates... you're missing the point.

Now I don't think the rating are completely pointless. While you are on the road of becoming a magician they can be helpful in some areas.

Picture yourself on a path. At the start of the path it says beginner and you begin your journey. Along this path you realize it is much longer than you anticipated and there are a ton of obstacles along the way, but you push forward.

Now you come to a sign that says intermediate and you have to begin your journey through this section of the metaphorical road. The obstacles are more difficult, but you push through and some time later you get to a sign that says "advance". The obstacles are harder and maybe longer, but you proceed through the all of the rough spots and you go through a door at the end that says "magician".

Now this is completely hypothetical obviously and isn't exactly how I see it, but it seems to be a good enough picture to be painted to better help everyone understand what I mean.

Basically, I am saying the "levels" should only be used while you are learning the trade. You are either a magician or you are not. If they are to be used to label someone, then they are only used prior to becoming a magician. Because in my eyes there is not such thing as a beginner magician..Maybe a beginner on the path of becoming a magician, but not a magician yet..

You did get the idea of what I was saying though.

First one would be rating by your dexterity. You have to rate it, because not everyone of us can do a double lift or pass. So if you buy a DVD that is FILLED with double lifts and you can't do it, you are like fish in dessert. For example I cannot do Rise move from Ray Rosbys(sp?) Impossible card magic. Man, my fingers will break

Think you missed my point. You could have all the dexterity in the world and be able to perform every sleight known to man flawlessly, but that does not mean you can present it and perform well in front of people. You could out there and shake all over and vomit because of nerves and drop the cards all over the ground.

You should definitely know sleight of hand to become a magician, but just because you do know sleight of hand doesn't make you one.

In the movie Night at the Museum Ben Stiller does some rather decent sleight of hand. Now does that make him a magician or even a beginner magician at that? No...so it's completely impossible to label him a "beginner magician" because he is not even considered a magician to begin with...

-Dave-

 

[Tomas Simkus]

You didn't understand me.

Then I was talking about dexterity and sleights I didn't have in mind PERFORMANCE. It is whole other thing. To the word PERDORMANCE comes everything: showmanship, presentation, dexterity and bunch of other things. The level of dexterity should be rated, I explained why in my previous post. And once again I wasn't talking about performance. So do you understand my point here?

 

[Dave Wiltrout]

You didn't understand me.

Then I was talking about dexterity and sleights I didn't have in mind PERFORMANCE. It is whole other thing. To the word PERDORMANCE comes everything: showmanship, presentation, dexterity and bunch of other things. The level of dexterity should be rated, I explained why in my previous post. And once again I wasn't talking about performance. So do you understand my point here?

Yes, dexterity can definitely become a factor depending on what you perform, but my point is that you can be a magician without dexterity, but it doesn't necessarily go the other way.

It seems you are trying to prove something that doesn't need to proven. Yes, I understand it can be part of the overall criteria of magician, but just because you have it does not make you a magician and that is my point...It seems you are trying to go in another direction with what I am saying when it is unnecessary.

But I do understand what you are getting at.

-Dave-

 

[tokyoUW]

No offense, but when you start a post by saying it is stupid to use a label like "beginner, intermediate, advanced," for a magician, you are opening a door to quite a stupid discussion. It is all symantics, and everyon's use of those words to clarify a skill level are all different. The problem with this post and your dilemna with everyone using these words, is that, everyone but you somewhat understands the fact that everyone uses those words slightly differently to clarify their skill level.

It is like three people arguing over the appropriate temperature where you can say, "it is cold," or "it is hot." Someone from texas and someone from canada will have very different opinions, but people generally understand this fact, which is also why they don't start posts about it.

 

[Dave Wiltrout]

No offense, but when you start a post by saying it is stupid to use a label like "beginner, intermediate, advanced," for a magician, you are opening a door to quite a stupid discussion. It is all symantics, and everyon's use of those words to clarify a skill level are all different. The problem with this post and your dilemna with everyone using these words, is that, everyone but you somewhat understands the fact that everyone uses those words slightly differently to clarify their skill level.

It is like three people arguing over the appropriate temperature where you can say, "it is cold," or "it is hot." Someone from texas and someone from canada will have very different opinions, but people generally understand this fact, which is also why they don't start posts about it.

Yes, I understand everyone is different and the words will be used slightly different. That was part of my discussion. I said I feel that they probably shouldn't to be used at all, but if they are going to be used, then use them in a fashion that makes better sense. Which I have discussed above..

I simply and firmly expressed my feelings and that was all there was to it. It becomes "arguing semantics" when other people turn it into that. These were strictly opinions of my own. Which you said nothing much different than I already said. You just used different words..

-Dave-

 

[SHANE BLACK]

Without the semantics,...

I think its important to know your own skill level but less important to brag about it. It's you that has to live with yourself. Good points and bad points.

Discuss.

 

[CDarklock]

I simply and firmly expressed my feelings and that was all there was to it.

And, if I may, you also asked for discussion.

Which means you wanted to know other people's feelings. Not shove your feelings on them as the "right" feelings, which would have been stupid.

I think we all know that this is a discussion which has no right answer. It's about what you think and why, and we're not trying to find out who's right, just what the general sense is around these things.

For example, I agree that the labels don't mean a lot after a certain point, but they do communicate something. Our industry is a scam inside of a scam inside of a scam, and it doesn't matter what we say as long as we communicate properly. Magic is fundamentally a lie that we all know is a lie. Then we tell another lie on top of it to be entertaining, and then we all pretend nobody's lying... which is another lie. It's outrageous. But as long as we all know it's lies piled on top of lies, it's fun, not scummy.

So when the labels are inappropriate, they're just another kind of lie that we all tell, and know we tell, and that makes it okay because we all know what's happening. I think that's perfect. Magic is the world's biggest inside joke. That's what I love about it.

 

[Dave Wiltrout]

And, if I may, you also asked for discussion.

Which means you wanted to know other people's feelings. Not shove your feelings on them as the "right" feelings, which would have been stupid.

You are right, I did ask for other opinions. I have not shoved my opinion on anyone in a sense of trying to say "I am right". I said right out that these are nothing short of my opinions.

I am just trying to make my points as clear as I can to others so they don't think I mean something that I really don't.

So please, please don't make it sound as if I am trying force anything on anyone. I know you didn't outright say that I am, but the way you said it can definitely come across that way to some. Just look at your words I quoted above. Sure sounds like that, even though I know you didn't actually say I am..

Thanks for your input.

-Dave-

 

[CDarklock]

So please, please don't make it sound as if I am trying force anything on anyone.

I was reiterating that you're NOT doing that. You're trying to have a discussion about a controversial topic, and people are reading you the riot act because it's controversial. That's not your fault. Indeed, it's the controversy that makes it worth discussing.

We're on the same side here, bub.