Being Chased

[IllusiveCoinMan]

How many times or if ever after doing a retention vanish or a false transfer have you been caught or called out that it may be in your other hand. Sometimes no matter how good my misdirection is or how smooth I pull off a false transfer I still get called out that its in my other hand.

 

[scottbaird]

Are you presenting the vanish as an effect itself? Because that's not good.

How long are you giving between the apparent placement, and the moment of the vanish? The longer, the better... but not TOO long. You don't want them to forget there's a coin there, but you don't want it to look like the coin never gets there, either.

How long are you waiting before palming the "vanished" coin? Don't palm it before you show it gone, unless you hide the palming motion with the magical gesture before the vanish is revealed.

Any questions, pm me.

Scott.

 

[BYRNSEY]

i think i know what you mean
sometimes people will think the opposite of what your doing no matter what.
this is where you need something like a fools vanish to through them and get momentum. also a coin sticky taped on your clothing to reveal i find always throws everybody.

 

[LuseifHo]

well
watch John Carney perform. His misdirection, movements, and everything is perfect.
also watch David Stone's DVDs. Ive been in coin for around 2 years and he still caught me off guard with the simplest of tricks.
and
as well as that. if things get to it,
there are always hand washes.

 

[joshrobarts]

agreed, hand washes are a great convincer as well as some subtle nuances to make people think your hand really is empty. I was watching David' stone's dvd last night and just little things he does, like wiggling his fingers or pointing to his eye and saying watch closely, or has he says it "Wash clooseleee" its the little nuances that really sell it, just keep practicing and maybe pick up some extra hand washes for those stubborn spec's

 

[Morgan B]

This is the problem with coin magic - it takes sequences to create confusion, as you are constantly playing the game - "What hand is it in" - when we claim to vanish something, it should look gone...we should not have to do a series of hand washing or displays that look unnatural to "convince" of what we claim.

BYRNSEY touches on what I had one spectator call "Lost leaders" - I liked it, so decided to keep the terminology - the concept is that we always want them to look in the opposite place from where the coin really is - and only through layers of these lost leaders does coin "magic" - read confusion - start to get it's strength.

Even if you pull the vanish off really well...as soon as you show your other hand empty...they look to the other hand - signs they are not convinced yet.

These are more issues that need to be dealt with.

 

[Monopoly]

This is the problem with coin magic - it takes sequences to create confusion, as you are constantly playing the game - "What hand is it in" - when we claim to vanish something, it should look gone...we should not have to do a series of hand washing or displays that look unnatural to "convince" of what we claim.

BYRNSEY touches on what I had one spectator call "Lost leaders" - I liked it, so decided to keep the terminology - the concept is that we always want them to look in the opposite place from where the coin really is - and only through layers of these lost leaders does coin "magic" - read confusion - start to get it's strength.

Even if you pull the vanish off really well...as soon as you show your other hand empty...they look to the other hand - signs they are not convinced yet.

These are more issues that need to be dealt with.

well thats not true im not trying to brag but ive been doing coins for 3 years now and i believe that they are the strongest peace of magic. it just takes good misdirection and good palming skills. showning both hands empty is something one must master in order to be a good coin perfomer.

 

[Morgan B]

Really...I consider myself pretty well versed at coin magic - I have been doing it much longer than you (just so you know) and I hang with award winning coin magicians and guys that are consider elite with coins - we all agree their are issues, I just don't find many people willing to deal with them.

Someone eventually...I hope even me...will handle this in a book or video, and you will all proclaim them a God.

The problem, even if your palm is perfect and misdirection is timed well, is that coin magic is full of lost leaders - and the level of deception is not always as strong as you might think. It is a game of "what hand is it in" or you have to load on the gimmick.

Do something with ONE coin that has meaning to connect to the audience and doesn't have the audiences head swivelling back and forth. This is really hard to expalin in text, without over writing - so you may have to read between the lines and think from my side.

Look at it this way - and I am NOT starting a coin vs cards debate.

When you do a retention vanish...where does someone look? The other hand, right? So to convince them, you have to layer the deception with more unnatural moves - hand washing, etc - in short - you have to confuse them, as you can never show the truth. The coin is still there - the method is obvious. When coin magicians layer moves - it looks more like juggling, than simple to understand magic.

When I do ONE phase of an ACR - and put the card in the middle, then show it on top. The convincer is - worst case scenario - they look in the middle of the deck. They can't find the card...they are convinced - and they did it themselves. (Although, just having the card signed, can remove the idea of "it is still in the middle, I digress).

I LOVE coin magic actually, and I am good at it - and I still see these weaknesses. I brought it to the group in hopes we could discuss and problem solve - so far, I have spent almost a year trying to convince people of the problems they are too blind or ignorant to see.

Which makes me wonder how experienced people really are in magic, to not see these issues that would be great to tackle to IMPROVE coin magic.

Good luck withy our palm to palm transfers, hand washing and thumb palms...no matter how you look at it - coin magic - although nice eye candy, needs help in the strength of effect.

Don't believe me - do a set of 3 coin things...your strongest - see what kind of reactions you get.

Then do 3 of your best Rubber Band effects...card effects....or three mixed sponges, cups and balls and rings...I don't care - coin magic is the second thing we often learn - it has it's own FORUM - but is one of the weakest forms of magic when it comes to strong standards in deception - aka - the complete package of an effect. If you don't know what that is, please don't trash me....start reading - if you do, I am curious on why you would disagree.


Thanks for reading.

 

[Snorri]

Wow

I am curious as to what your trying to accomplish with your coin magic as I have seen it be very deceptive.
Are you talking about coin magic from a purist standpoint or using gafus?

I have been doing magic fro a very long time and coin magic was one of the things I have been doing the longest.

Watch Tony Slydini do his one coin routine and tell me it is not deceptive.

The retention vanish can be very deceptive but not so much to other magicians.
The french drop can be deceptive and then if you throw in a spider vanish with the touch that Homer has on his video you can fool magicians easily. I have done it in the magic shop here locally. I don't frequent the magic club here in town for my own personal reasons. The Latta palm is very deceptive when used properly.

"Misty Like A Dream" by Gary Kurtz messed with my head when I first saw it ....I liked how Gary led you down the garden path and shows you the hands emnpty where you may have thought there was a coin or two. It is advanced magic. It is also a full coin routine/ show.

Watch Arnaud Chevalier do his Pieces de Salon....very deceptive.

If you talking about just a one coin routine then look at David Roth's Flurry and see what can be done with a single coin made into a routine...there isn't time for the spectator to say it is here or there.

Learn the fine art of misdirection properly and present your effect with confidence and proper timing and you will not have to run or even be chansed.

Perhaps my favorite routine that fooled me is by Troy Hooser and I don't think he has published it...the three coins vanish and he shows both hands completely empty. He did this routine for me in 1999 and again in 2000 which I video taped to record it for future reference. Several of the things he has published has parts of it.
He shows his hands empty and produced three coins...showed the hand empty as each coin was produced. Then one by one he vanished the coins showing both hands empty without hand washing them...the coins looked like they were totally gone. With the last coins he may have used his Dexterous ditch but did not use that action immediatly after the coin had vanished. Malini said wait til the time is right to hold out or ditch something. Troy is very adept at things like that.
He did not use the Triple Threat for this routine as it had not been invented yet...though several people were working with that type of gimmick at the time.

Silver dream is very deceptive once you master the techniques Justin uses to accomplish the effect. The spectators have no place to go ....your telling me that that effect is weak? You have not performed it for people in a crowded bar full of regular people then.

Coin magic is as strong as the performer wishes to make it.

If your getting caught then your doing somethng wrong in your presentation.

If you feel that coin magic is weak then that will carry over into your performance through sublte body movements and tension. It is self defeating to think along those lines.

Just my thoughts,
Snorri

 

[Steerpike]

Id' say a big part of the problem is not that coin magic is so simplistic (in that it is very, very easy for a spectator to describe what just happened), but the fact that most magicians seem to think that simplicity will do the work for them. Because it's so straightforward, they don't feel the need to add other layers of deception.

I never perform a coin effect unless the coin itself (or coins as the case may be) is purely incidental.

 

[Morgan B]

Snorri - although Steerpike nailed it on the head - I just want to add a few things.

I find it very insulting that you would think I am the issue. I am kind of tired of the arrogant and mindless magicians copying the masses of routines you listed, but never discussing the weaknesses in each one that are inherent in coin magic. You won't allow yourself to see it as a lay person, because you are so caught up in what you do. When is the last time you saw someone handle coins and show their hands empty by wiping their hands? There are so many weak moments in coin magic, all we can do is layer confusion...rather than deception.

I never conveyed I am getting caught - truth be known, I like and am good at coins, however, I do choose my coin effects carefully - there are few good ones, even many you named I could spend time showing you where the problems exist...actually, I am trying to convey to you that you probably don't realize YOU are getting caught. Coin magic looks fishy, and if you read some of the posts I have written in "What coin magic" - you may understand more. At the very least read the first post in the thread to understand what I am talking about.

I have spent time with the majority of the guys you mentioned, and they understand the issues - a lay person can take a blind guess during a coin routine and say, "the coin is in the other hand" at any point - and most the time, they are right. IF this is your standard of deception, perhaps the only person fooled by coin magic - is yourself.

Just my thoughts,
Morgician

 

[IllusiveCoinMan]

Yeah true but there are many ways to show that other hand empty proving the fact.

 

[Morgan B]

but really think about it - do they look like normal movement, or contrived?

 

[Ramo D.]

its too easy to follow coin magic thats why everyone knows its always in the other hand

 

[The Tumbleweed]

its too easy to follow coin magic thats why everyone knows its always in the other hand

That's where you're wrong.

 

[LuseifHo]

Theres quite a few things I disagree with both sides.
1. Whats the point of constantly layering confusion. That only works for tricks for magicians "you think its in this hand no its not, you saw a classic palm? well up yours!" Why would you want to confuse a laymen? "Hey heres a coin, theres a flash, wave a bit here, up my armpit, something happens, what was happening again?" You dont need to layer confusion. Just 1 or 2 gestures/ convincers are enough. If you lead your audience well, they will naturally ignore the obvious conclusion of it being in your other hand.

2.You cant say that hand washes are obsolete. Yea sure it doesnt look like anything a laymen would do, but it does the job. In the spectators mind "Its in the other hand... wait hes wiping it unaturally. WAIT ITS NOT THERE DAMN! WHERE IS IT?" They focus more on where the coin is rather than the uncomferting hand movement they just witnessed. There are also a few hand washes out there which look pretty natural. Akira Fuji has a nice one. Looks like what any person would do to show clean hands. A laymen can take a blind guess, but what if they persist in you showing your hand "AND IT VANISHES!" "its in your other hand" "look look look over there. here we have..." show me your hand" "no wait.. look over there for a second" its in your hand" "shuttup and get confused".

3. Ditches are also a solution. If you seriously are against hand washes, just ditch the damn thing.

4. I find that one of the main problems in coin magic is that its very well known. Almost everyone knows what a palm is and 1/6 of those people know the classic palm. At one point or another, everyone has read kiddy magic books which do teach the classic palm or thumb palm. The problem is that these palms are indeed the best ones so we cant escape them. That is why both misdirection, subtleteyes, extra convincers are essential to know. It is possible to pull off a simple vanish, but isnt it better to be ready for everything?

5. Another solution is changine the palms you do. the Harada Hold shows both hands simultaneously, so do some other watch vanishes.

Basically, my point is that it is not essential, but it is a better to know how to handle these problems. What if those layers and layers of confusion just dont do it. I dont care how good a magician you say you are, the bottom line is that even Homer Liwag will get caught out once in a while and knowing how to face it is essential.
I do agree that those convincers and little moves are more important that hand washing or what ever as it usually creates a bigger/ stronger effect, but you cant rely 100% on them.

 

[Morgan B]

sciffdof,

I find it interesting that all your points focused on method - and many of your points just comb over the issues.

1. I don't think you should LAYER CONFUSION - but I do find that many times coin magicians are trying to do just that. Even with 1 or 2 gestures - which look so unnatural and chererographed - while you lead them - NO audience will completely ignore the "how did he do that" part of the magic. They will back track...I don't think all audiences are lemmings to be lead, but maybe we work for different groups.

2. I am not sure anyone said that hand washes are obsolete - I said they were unnatural - read - they look like a move. It looks like a concealment. People don't always focus just on the coin, but what you are doing with that coin.

3. Ditches aren't always the answer to the coin plot - haven't you ever seen the movie Pretige? haha, seriously though, you can't vanish something and not bring it back.

4. I can agree with this, but again - sort of a "be good at what you do" recommendation, doesn't really tell us exactly what to do...like a "Don't do drugs" commercial. We all know that slogan, but no commercial tells you how to deal with how drugs become part of ones life. Perhaps that was a bit too deep, but I hope you understand the analogy.

5. Yes, change the palms you do - hide it in different parts of your hand - that will work?! Add more unnatural movement, to more unnatural movement - but seriously, this might help. Perhaps our first solution, learn more ways to hide a coin.

6. Your last paragraph makes a strong argument for coin magic being problematic.

I think it is time we all take a harder look at some coin magic - it gave me an idea. Look for a post on deconstructing a coin effect. Coming to a thread near you.

 

[LuseifHo]

1. I was just repeating what you said. Layer something or something. The gestures I mentioned are those convicners like what Carney or Stone do. Natural things that everyone do, fiddle with a pen, point around, pick up stuff, Im not talking about a wave and twirl here and there. If they back track then "so the coin was gone... but he was fiddling with the pens... so where is it?" Most people take out the possibility of a pen spin while palming, atleast people I have performed for.

2. As I have said, the bigger covers the small. Sure it looks unatural, but would you be amazed by a unatural hand movement or the fact that a coin just dissappeared. They may lag on the thought a bit, but no one I know has ever came back to me and went "so what was with that hand brushy thing?".

3. I guess thats right. I just pointed it out for the sake of it. Topits are always there.

4. Of course be good at what you do. Just saying that as I find that as one of the biggest things seperating coin magic from the other genres, making it a harder one to fool the living hell out of. But things like shells and gimmicks still do a good job. Just saying that if people fiddle with coins, sooner or later they will find some sort of palm. If you do it well enough then people will naturally take out the possibility of that they know of. A guy said i was doing a double lift once, I told him to do it, he couldnt, he got baffled.

5. Yea the unatural thing does kinda bother a bit. But there are a few which do look quite normal. You can always pass it off as artistic motions. Like stage illusions "Why do they always dance around the stage and have the worlds biggest movements?" "they are artists... they like to express emotions" ah well

Coin magic also seems to be one of those tricks where if it is impromptu, it seems the easiest (to me) to figure out. Things like cards. cuts and controls you cant follow them for your life. But you only have 2 hands, which kinda does narrow it down. Ah well. I never had a big problem with people calling me out, just wanted to join in the fun of the conversation.

 

[Steerpike]

1. I was just repeating what you said. Layer something or something.

There's a galaxy's expanse of difference between layering confusion and layering deception.

2. As I have said, the bigger covers the small. Sure it looks unatural, but would you be amazed by a unatural hand movement or the fact that a coin just dissappeared. They may lag on the thought a bit, but no one I know has ever came back to me and went "so what was with that hand brushy thing?".

Big to small isn't the only aspect of misdirection and convincers. The problem is that most coin magicians in an effort to be convincing stop at nothing... and stay there.

A guy said i was doing a double lift once, I told him to do it, he couldnt, he got baffled.

That's playing with fire.

5. Yea the unatural thing does kinda bother a bit. But there are a few which do look quite normal. You can always pass it off as artistic motions. Like stage illusions "Why do they always dance around the stage and have the worlds biggest movements?" "they are artists... they like to express emotions" ah well

That analogy doesn't quite scan. I've done acting for the stage before and you need large, sweeping gestures so that the people in the cheap seats can see them. It's not done as an artistic consideration, but a pragmatic one.

 

[Randy]

A guy said i was doing a double lift once, I told him to do it, he couldnt, he got baffled.

You're saying because he couldn't pull off the move, that he was still able to fool? Which is wrong and pretty stupid. He now knows you did something, and he knows exactly what it is. Not only that, your challenge to him, just ruined the entire show for him and everybody else. If he sees you perform again, everything will be a puzzle to him.