Demonic magicians?

[Antonio Diavolo]

Hello everyone! I was wondering what you all think of the people (like Xendrius on YouTube or actual people you've met) who think magic acts are performed through the use of demonic entities? Would you correct them? Or would you take it as a compliment?

I personally can kinda see it as both. Some of these people I've seen through the internet are harmless and are simply "exposing" the supposed supernatural forces behind the trick. This can be good as it means the trick is so well performed that it looks like real magic. Also, it misdirects them and the people who agree with them from figuring out the real trick.

However, the comments have the occasional person who says something like "these warlocks must be burned!" or "If someone ever performs these blasphemies in front of me, I will spit in their face and say a prayer to burn the demon out from them". These aren't exact quotes but sort of paraphrased versions of actual comments I've seen under various magician and a few demon magician videos. Although, I can't stand more than a few minutes of the stupidity in those demon magician videos.

So basically, what's general of these people? Should anything be done to basically say "hey these aren't demons. It's entertainment. Chill out" or should we let them believe what they want?

PS: I am in no way against Christianity or any religion so in case someone misinterprets what I'm trying to say, I'd like to prevent the responses from becoming a religious debate.

Also, If anyone has any stories of legitimately being "called out" for being satanic and the person didn't mean it as a joke, I'd love to hear them. I kinda get a kick out of them as long as the person isn't seriously hurt like Wayne Houchin was.

 

[ParkinT]

You pose an interesting question. And I, too, can see TWO sides of the discussion.
My first response is a bit of sad (pity?) for anyone who is so seriously naive to think the many "magical" things performers do are actually calling on occult 'forces' beyond the natural; supernatural, by definition.
At the same time, in the 21st century where we have daily experience that is beyond many of the predicted futuristic musings of traditional Science Fiction how can anyone be absolutely fooled or amazed?! The 'beyond belief' things that were part of the circus just a few decades ago are no longer startling or inconceivable. With Virtual Reality, movies that contain no real locations, electronic devices that have so much power in such small packages and photographs from distant galaxies, it seems NOTHING is beyond possible or to be believed as factual.

Just my 2 cents (and I fully expect some change in return).

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I always wonder if this thing didn't start as a joke, then get taken seriously. Poe's Law.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

You pose an interesting question. And I, too, can see TWO sides of the discussion.
My first response is a bit of sad (pity?) for anyone who is so seriously naive to think the many "magical" things performers do are actually calling on occult 'forces' beyond the natural; supernatural, by definition.
At the same time, in the 21st century where we have daily experience that is beyond many of the predicted futuristic musings of traditional Science Fiction how can anyone be absolutely fooled or amazed?! The 'beyond belief' things that were part of the circus just a few decades ago are no longer startling or inconceivable. With Virtual Reality, movies that contain no real locations, electronic devices that have so much power in such small packages and photographs from distant galaxies, it seems NOTHING is beyond possible or to be believed as factual.

Just my 2 cents (and I fully expect some change in return).

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke

That's very true. Never thought about it like that.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

I always wonder if this thing didn't start as a joke, then get taken seriously. Poe's Law.

I sure hope so

 

[TylerScottIllusionist]

I always wonder if this thing didn't start as a joke, then get taken seriously. Poe's Law.

I think that's what happened. Also, these sort of videos gets millions of views so from a business stand point, it makes sense to create this false dogma against magicians.

 

[Justin.Morris]

I'm all about educating people when they are open to listening and learning.

People are afraid of what they don't know or understand (part of the reason magic elicits such strong reactions from people). I believe it was in Darwin Ortiz's book Strong Magic, where he talks about how when people see something they don't understand, they will automatically connect it to what makes the most sense. Like if you see a candle flicker, you associate the reason with the open window in the room. With magic, we try to remove as many possibilities (open windows) as we can, so that they can only associate the magic with the magician as the cause. But to go further with that thought, we automatically associate with what we know to be true. If I blow a pencil across a table and hold out my hand to make it look like 'the force', this will not fool an adult, but will fool a young child. Because an adult has probably done that before at some point in their life, but a child does not have that concept in their worldview if they have never done that and explored that idea.

A Christian worldview (or any other religion) has to include the idea of a spiritual realm. So that is in their toolbox of explanations that make sense. So when they see magic, and no logical explanation is available, it would appear to be illogical to say the magician did it, and seem far more plausible to say that it was something spiritual (because after all we know people aren't actually wizards).

Someone without a spiritual realm in their worldview (or a less common understanding of a spiritual realm), will just arrive at a place of ignorance (literally no understanding) and be at a loss because everything they know to be true contradicts what they are seeing. A GREAT example of this is Ricky Gervais reacting to David Blaine putting a needle through his arm. He actually talks out his thought process (caution, language).

In a similar way, a religious person might hit a similar point, and then attribute it to the realm of possibilities - not because that is in the Bible, but because our minds need to categorize it somewhere.

I have met people who are generally "freaked out" by hypnotists and magicians, but I've never had someone call me a demon or evil in more than a jesting way. I did have a lady at a gig say that she did not want to see magic because she was from "the old country" where magic was practiced. I also really disturbed some people from Fiji who had had a lot of negative interactions with Voodoo. Both circumstances led to some great discussion.

So my point would be that we react out of a place of ignorance. We can use this to help lead people to a place of greater understanding through discussion. If they are open to talking, then so am I.

But like Tyler said above, some people are just doing it for attention. I'm sure others just want the conspiracy of it and wouldn't listen even if you revealed everything.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

I'm all about educating people when they are open to listening and learning.

People are afraid of what they don't know or understand (part of the reason magic elicits such strong reactions from people). I believe it was in Darwin Ortiz's book Strong Magic, where he talks about how when people see something they don't understand, they will automatically connect it to what makes the most sense. Like if you see a candle flicker, you associate the reason with the open window in the room. With magic, we try to remove as many possibilities (open windows) as we can, so that they can only associate the magic with the magician as the cause. But to go further with that thought, we automatically associate with what we know to be true. If I blow a pencil across a table and hold out my hand to make it look like 'the force', this will not fool an adult, but will fool a young child. Because an adult has probably done that before at some point in their life, but a child does not have that concept in their worldview if they have never done that and explored that idea.

A Christian worldview (or any other religion) has to include the idea of a spiritual realm. So that is in their toolbox of explanations that make sense. So when they see magic, and no logical explanation is available, it would appear to be illogical to say the magician did it, and seem far more plausible to say that it was something spiritual (because after all we know people aren't actually wizards).

Someone without a spiritual realm in their worldview (or a less common understanding of a spiritual realm), will just arrive at a place of ignorance (literally no understanding) and be at a loss because everything they know to be true contradicts what they are seeing. A GREAT example of this is Ricky Gervais reacting to David Blaine putting a needle through his arm. He actually talks out his thought process (caution, language).

In a similar way, a religious person might hit a similar point, and then attribute it to the realm of possibilities - not because that is in the Bible, but because our minds need to categorize it somewhere.

I have met people who are generally "freaked out" by hypnotists and magicians, but I've never had someone call me a demon or evil in more than a jesting way. I did have a lady at a gig say that she did not want to see magic because she was from "the old country" where magic was practiced. I also really disturbed some people from Fiji who had had a lot of negative interactions with Voodoo. Both circumstances led to some great discussion.

So my point would be that we react out of a place of ignorance. We can use this to help lead people to a place of greater understanding through discussion. If they are open to talking, then so am I.

But like Tyler said above, some people are just doing it for attention. I'm sure others just want the conspiracy of it and wouldn't listen even if you revealed everything.

I've heard this before. When it comes to the unexplained, people tend to give it an explanation that makes sense to them. I've had people come up with the most convoluted explanations for some tricks like a deck with a robotic arm inside, ink that changes with heat, etc.

Also, funny you mention blowing on a pencil because I've actually gotten some great reactions from that trick, I've even fooled teens and adults with. Mainly because people will look for non-existent strings or magnets.

Thanks for your input by the way! I like your way of handling this. I'm pretty sure I got what you were saying. I apologize as I have a tendency to misinterpret what people mean. What I got from your statement was if someone legitimately accuses you of witchcraft, discuss it with them.

 

[Ziad Khayat]

It's hilarious. And also deeply troubling. Given the accessibility of methods, those people are probably too far gone, and will never be able to accept reason. If one of them turns up at a performance, just laugh it off and figure out how to get rid of them. I heard a story, I forget who it was, but the guy was doing table hopping and someone stood up and yelled at him: "I renounce you in the name of Jesus." This obviously turned some heads, So he just said "but you haven't even seen my best trick yet, I can make my head turn all the way 'round." Most of the people had a good laugh, and he just moved on to the next table.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I've never been accused of being demonic - but I have had my fair share of true believers want to chat with me about otherworldly powers. Actually, just yesterday I got a message through my professional FB page asking what gave me my gifts.

I do my best not to be judgmental regarding someone's beliefs. I've come to the conclusion that faith and intelligence aren't all that closely linked. I've known stupid atheists and very smart believers (of various faiths). Even intelligence isn't a cut and dry thing. The ability to do complex mathematics, or tackle in depth philosophical questions is absolutely useless to the guy who has to make his apple trees produce the best fruit. Most intelligence is specialized to various degrees and there's very little that's actually "common sense" (https://xkcd.com/1053/).

So when someone starts talking about demons and you start thinking how ridiculous you are, understand that you're making a ton of assumptions and then judging that person from those assumptions. My philosophy is that as long as it's not hurting anyone else, it doesn't matter what any person believes.

Like I said, no one has accused me of demonic help before. Which, I'm slightly surprised about considering the material I perform. Though I have had more than a few say they wouldn't attend various things I did because of the content (Seances and such). Oh! There was one seance I did where someone reported feeling a demonic presence ... does that count? I just did a banishment and they were satisfied.

 

[William Draven]

Surprisingly enough, of all the people out there, Christians generally have the least educated knowledge about what a demon is, isn't, what it can and can't do, the names and hierarchy, and how to handle them. It's like they throw the word around for anything that they don't understand, don't want to understand, or don't like.

 

[Justin.Morris]

Surprisingly enough, of all the people out there, Christians generally have the least educated knowledge about what a demon is, isn't, what it can and can't do, the names and hierarchy, and how to handle them. It's like they throw the word around for anything that they don't understand, don't want to understand, or don't like.

Well, I wouldn't paint with a broad brush, as this would depend on your demonology and what source one chooses to study. (The Bible doesn't really give names, etc)

An overzealous person who jumps to conclusions about magicians being possessed or having actual supernatural/demonic powers, probably needs someone to teach them truth. Again it comes down to treating others how you want to be treated. If they aren't willing to listen to talk, there's not much we can do.

Houdini made it a personal crusade to expose and teach about mediums (because of his personal experience) and I think many magicians prefer to do the same in essence, correcting misconceptions. Ironically, many magicians are skeptics towards spiritual things, and yet they are called out as being demonic!

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

Houdini made it a personal crusade to expose and teach about mediums (because of his personal experience) and I think many magicians prefer to do the same in essence, correcting misconceptions. Ironically, many magicians are skeptics towards spiritual things, and yet they are called out as being demonic!

Funnily enough, many people would see this as further evidence of the magician being demonic. They think the magicians expose these supernatural things to direct attention away from themselves. I guess that kind of makes sense in a way but the reason many magicians are skeptical of mediums and psychics is because they often use magician's techniques to accomplish their supernatural feats. Plus, most magicians are experts in deception.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

I've never been accused of being demonic - but I have had my fair share of true believers want to chat with me about otherworldly powers. Actually, just yesterday I got a message through my professional FB page asking what gave me my gifts.

I do my best not to be judgmental regarding someone's beliefs. I've come to the conclusion that faith and intelligence aren't all that closely linked. I've known stupid atheists and very smart believers (of various faiths). Even intelligence isn't a cut and dry thing. The ability to do complex mathematics, or tackle in depth philosophical questions is absolutely useless to the guy who has to make his apple trees produce the best fruit. Most intelligence is specialized to various degrees and there's very little that's actually "common sense" (https://xkcd.com/1053/).

So when someone starts talking about demons and you start thinking how ridiculous you are, understand that you're making a ton of assumptions and then judging that person from those assumptions. My philosophy is that as long as it's not hurting anyone else, it doesn't matter what any person believes.

Never said religious beliefs were stupid. Just the idea that these magicians are supposedly using actual magic is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

I've never been accused of being demonic - but I have had my fair share of true believers want to chat with me about otherworldly powers. Actually, just yesterday I got a message through my professional FB page asking what gave me my gifts.

Also, what did you say in response to these people? Did you politely correct them? Ignore them? Or play along?


Reminds me of Arthur Conan Doyle and Houdini lol.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I was honest - I told them I am a performance artist who specializes in exploring unexplained phenomena with a combination of psychological methods, hypnosis and suggestion, and occasionally magic (illusion, not ceremony). That is what I do.

I then chatted with them a bit to understand the nature of where they were coming from and made some suggestions for where I thought it would be best for them to find assistance. This is not the first time I've played this game, and in the past I have occasionally converted these people into hypnotherapy clients.

The reason you think people assuming a stage magician is using demonic sources is ridiculous is because you are working from a different set of information than the people you are judging, and are not taking the time to see things from their point of view. They are simply drawing what they feel is a logical conclusion with the information they have available. It's really important not to confuse the idea of intelligence, with the idea of knowledge. One can know a lot and be stupid, and one can know little and be quite intelligent. One of the smartest men in the country is a farmer who's never graduated college. He writes advanced physics papers as a hobby.

Side note - There's evidence that many of the big 'debunker' magicians of the golden days were actually training the psychics they later busted, all for publicity.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

I was honest - I told them I am a performance artist who specializes in exploring unexplained phenomena with a combination of psychological methods, hypnosis and suggestion, and occasionally magic (illusion, not ceremony). That is what I do.

I then chatted with them a bit to understand the nature of where they were coming from and made some suggestions for where I thought it would be best for them to find assistance. This is not the first time I've played this game, and in the past I have occasionally converted these people into hypnotherapy clients.

The reason you think people assuming a stage magician is using demonic sources is ridiculous is because you are working from a different set of information than the people you are judging, and are not taking the time to see things from their point of view. They are simply drawing what they feel is a logical conclusion with the information they have available. It's really important not to confuse the idea of intelligence, with the idea of knowledge. One can know a lot and be stupid, and one can know little and be quite intelligent. One of the smartest men in the country is a farmer who's never graduated college. He writes advanced physics papers as a hobby.

Side note - There's evidence that many of the big 'debunker' magicians of the golden days were actually training the psychics they later busted, all for publicity.

My main issue is the people who, no matter what you tell them, they insist it's demonic. I really don't mind if people think that way at first. I think someone stated before that people tend to draw conclusions about the unexplained based on what makes sense to them and what they believe. But some tend to be stubborn. One example is Xendrius. You can literally link him to other magicians doing the performance the exact same way and he won't accept it. He says that they sell you the gimmicks to draw attention away from the fact that they are using demons.

I should've been more clear earlier. I'm still not entirely sure what I think on the whole topic. I guess my issue would be more with the people like Xendrius who I mentioned before. The people who are subbed to him eat his stuff up. He's making people distrust and dislike magicians in a way by presenting them in such a negative light. He makes them out to be Satanists who have sold their soul and are now possessed by demonic entities.

Honestly though, if someone legitimately confronted me and tried to exorcise the "demon" from me, or tried to make me perform a trick after having a prayer said, depending on my mood I'd probably either play along (because I like to mess with people sometimes) or show them another trick and explain that it's all illusion.

People also tend to think we are trying to imitate miracles and thus are mocking Jesus Christ or trying to become like a god through magic tricks. Some I've seen have even thought that people who get too deep into magic tricks will eventually sell their soul in order to continue improving their tricks.

I have no clue where I was going with this. I tend to ramble. I hope you at least got something out of all this BS I spewed. haha

 

[RealityOne]

I guess my issue would be more with the people like Xendrius who I mentioned before. The people who are subbed to him eat his stuff up. He's making people distrust and dislike magicians in a way by presenting them in such a negative light. He makes them out to be Satanists who have sold their soul and are now possessed by demonic entities.

@Antonio Diavolo, I had never heard of Xendrius before your post. I suspect if you ask 100 people on the street, you might get one person. Out of the people who subscribe to his website, I would guess the majority watch him for the entertainment value rather than in agreement with his beliefs. To most, his explanation of "demons" is about the same as people who try to explain magic with "mirror" or "magnet" like this:

"it's like two thing he doesn't understand..." "magic" and "demons."

That being said, I think that several of us here (@ChristopherT and @Draven for example) that could easily construct a show that could convince most of the audience that we possessed (or were possessed by) supernatural powers. However, I remember @Craig Browning mentioning that someone thought he was possessed for doing a sponge ball routine.

I don't think that magic is contrary to religion. I do a routine which involves a humorous letter from "The Prince of Darkness." I actually handed the letter to a priest to hold during the routine. The audience laughed when I did that and applauded at the end of the routine when, after a bad pun, I joked, "the Devil made me do it." I also do a routine about prayer using worry stones. I've done this for very religious people and they realize that I'm using magic as a tool to demonstrate faith (wait, did you notice that the word demonstrate begins with "demon"? Maybe I am possessed). I know several gospel magicians that do faith themed magic shows.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Xendrius just under 250K subscribers, as of now. I'd be willing to bet that if you walked around and asked a thousand people "Do you watch Xendrius on YouTube?" no one would know who you're talking about. It's extremely unlikely that anyone who actually believes what he's saying would even go see a magician perform, so I doubt it will ever have any impact on any magician's career - if anything, he'll help people because some of the videos he's posting are for performers who aren't super big yet, so they're just getting more advertising for free.

There's a quote that applies here, too, paraphrased: "For those who disbelieve, no proof is sufficient. For those who believe, no proof is necessary". That goes both ways - For those who believe, no proof will be sufficient to convince them otherwise. That's the thing about faith. By definition you can't prove something you believe in through faith. If you do, it's no longer faith.

I can honestly say that I don't think I've done a public show yet where I didn't have someone ask me where I learned my powers. This is despite never once claiming to have any powers at all. No one has accused me of demons, though. Which is slightly disappointing, kind of.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

@Antonio Diavolo, I had never heard of Xendrius before your post. I suspect if you ask 100 people on the street, you might get one person. Out of the people who subscribe to his website, I would guess the majority watch him for the entertainment value rather than in agreement with his beliefs. To most, his explanation of "demons" is about the same as people who try to explain magic with "mirror" or "magnet" like this:

"it's like two thing he doesn't understand..." "magic" and "demons."

That being said, I think that several of us here (@ChristopherT and @Draven for example) that could easily construct a show that could convince most of the audience that we possessed (or were possessed by) supernatural powers. However, I remember @Craig Browning mentioning that someone thought he was possessed for doing a sponge ball routine.

I don't think that magic is contrary to religion. I do a routine which involves a humorous letter from "The Prince of Darkness." I actually handed the letter to a priest to hold during the routine. The audience laughed when I did that and applauded at the end of the routine when, after a bad pun, I joked, "the Devil made me do it." I also do a routine about prayer using worry stones. I've done this for very religious people and they realize that I'm using magic as a tool to demonstrate faith (wait, did you notice that the word demonstrate begins with "demon"? Maybe I am possessed). I know several gospel magicians that do faith themed magic shows.

In regards to Xendrius, there are quite a few people in the comments who seem to agree with him. Also, using the right technique, you could make many tricks look like supernatural powers. Mentalism would probably be best for this though.