Just wondering if anybody is using discrepancy dribble control (d.d.c.) from trilogy and what your opinions about it are. It is so bold that I don´t dare to try it but at the same time it looks so appealing to me. I just love moves relying on optical illusions.
Discrepancy Dribble Control
- Thread starter senchi
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I seem to remember this coming up a few times before on the Dan and Dave forums. Most people have not had much success with it. Personally, I think it just isn't a very good move.
The only way I can see it working is if you misdirect the spectators just as you do the move. Anyone looking at the deck will probably notice that you did something even if they can't tell what you did.
The only way I can see it working is if you misdirect the spectators just as you do the move. Anyone looking at the deck will probably notice that you did something even if they can't tell what you did.
As Squ!rrel stated above me, I don't think it's a very practical move, and requires misdirection to pull off smoothly (if you are looking at the Buck's hands when they use D.D.C., you can easily see it.
I've used it before and gotten away with it several times, but I'll usually get a "hey, what was that"/"i saw it go on the top" (i just double lift to show that it's 'not') kind of reaction.
I've used it before and gotten away with it several times, but I'll usually get a "hey, what was that"/"i saw it go on the top" (i just double lift to show that it's 'not') kind of reaction.
Back in the cafe a member posted a very similar move (I'm assuming that the D.D.C is Sleightly Magical ebook is the same as in Triology), though without the outjog. The move served him well. Someone refered him to the Bucks technique for the added touch of the jog.
The move is deceptive and can be done while they're burning your hands ( from my experience at least ). Some pointers I picked up:
1) Timing: Do the move smoothly and with a nice beat. Too fast or too slow is not good, any stopping action ( not doing the move smoothly ) is bad too. You have to get the rythm down, which I struggled with as I got it as an ebook ... Seeing it done in video helps alot.
2) Direction of gaze: They're looking at the card, then as you return the packets together look at them and say any line like "got it?" or "remmeber it". I don't recommend a "I'll leave it sticking out in the middle", as this draws alot of attention on the deck, which is something you don't want in this move as well in many others.
Cheers,
The move is deceptive and can be done while they're burning your hands ( from my experience at least ). Some pointers I picked up:
1) Timing: Do the move smoothly and with a nice beat. Too fast or too slow is not good, any stopping action ( not doing the move smoothly ) is bad too. You have to get the rythm down, which I struggled with as I got it as an ebook ... Seeing it done in video helps alot.
2) Direction of gaze: They're looking at the card, then as you return the packets together look at them and say any line like "got it?" or "remmeber it". I don't recommend a "I'll leave it sticking out in the middle", as this draws alot of attention on the deck, which is something you don't want in this move as well in many others.
Cheers,
I will give it a try because I like it for some reason. My main dilemma came from the fact that if I understand the move correctly then it is intended to be a move that can be done while spectators are burning your hands. If you misdirect from the whole thing there would not be a discrepancy in the move;P and no need for the illusion.
I got this idea, though its still fresh as I didn't work on it much. You could cover the actual move with this: As soon as you get their card on top, they would see a side jogged card, as soon as this happen, your right fingers cover the front end of the deck so it appears as their card is already the top one, even though its not fully inserted to the deck.
If the mods think there is a bit of exposure there, feel free to edit this.
On a quick note:
In card sleights in general ( and especially the ones thats supposed to look like nothing happened i.e moves without external reality, to borrow a phrase from Ascanio ) should be done while you not looking at the deck, and with the least attention to the deck as possible. The pass, pinkey count, side steals ... etc, all these are invisible when they burn down the deck, but still, you want to cover them more by adding an air of casualness. You want to look down on the deck at the moments you want to register in their mind ( in D.D.C, when the packets go together, and when you finished the move with their supposed card is outjogged).
Pretty much like second deals in a card game, you practice them till you could do them with no problems if anyone looked at the deck, at the same time you're not paying attention to what you're doing. You are just dealing while having a casual conversation with the players. If anyone happens to look on the deck, everything still looks good.
By the way, quite often, looking down on the deck all times ( especially while they return their selection) gives them a feeling that you are doing something funny, even though they can't see anything.
Cheers,
I know that standard opinion in magic is that every secret move should be accompanied of misdirection. However I don´t believe this to be a absolute rule. Some moves are designed to be looked at and done under scrutiny. If I recall correctly there is a anecdote mentioned in Aaron Fischers book where Larry Jennings is claimed to have executed a “invisible” pass during a performance but the spectators gaze was misdirected at that very moment which made Larry cut the deck and do the pass again
Also I own a video by David Williamson where he does a wonderful colour changing deck routine. During the whole performance he had me looking at him which made me completely unaware of whatever he was doing with the deck. In my opinion this weakened the effect.
Gary Ouelett(??) in his book “on the pass” states that if you are going to misdirect from your pass you might as well give a deck a complete cut and forget about the invisible pass.
Yet another example: what is the point of excecuting perfect bottom or second deal if nobody is looking at your hands at the time of the secret action??
Of course there are slights that require misdirection, plaming, switching, diching usually need to be done on the ofbeat and with misdirection.
Also I own a video by David Williamson where he does a wonderful colour changing deck routine. During the whole performance he had me looking at him which made me completely unaware of whatever he was doing with the deck. In my opinion this weakened the effect.
Gary Ouelett(??) in his book “on the pass” states that if you are going to misdirect from your pass you might as well give a deck a complete cut and forget about the invisible pass.
Yet another example: what is the point of excecuting perfect bottom or second deal if nobody is looking at your hands at the time of the secret action??
Of course there are slights that require misdirection, plaming, switching, diching usually need to be done on the ofbeat and with misdirection.
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I know that standard opinion in magic is that every secret move should be accompanied of misdirection. However I don´t believe this to be a absolute rule. Some moves are designed to be looked at and done under scrutiny. If I recall correctly there is a anecdote mentioned in Aaron Fischers book where Larry Jennings is claimed to have executed a “invisible” pass during a performance but the spectators gaze was misdirected at that very moment which made Larry cut the deck and do the pass again
Also I own a video by David Williamson where he does a wonderful colour changing deck routine. During the whole performance he had me looking at him which made me completely unaware of whatever he was doing with the deck. In my opinion this weakened the effect.
Gary Ouelett(??) in his book “on the pass” states that if you are going to misdirect from your pass you might as well give a deck a complete cut and forget about the invisible pass.
Yet another example: what is the point of excecuting perfect bottom or second deal if nobody is looking at your hands at the time of the secret action??
Of course there are slights that require misdirection, plaming, switching, diching usually need to be done on the ofbeat and with misdirection.
That isn't true at all, I have never heard anyone say that every sleight should be accompanied by misdirection. Many sleights work very well without misdirection as they allow the spectator to never take their eyes of the deck.
However, I don't believe the DDC allows this, if anyone is watching closely they will see that something has happened. Even if they don't say anything it is likely they know you did something. So if you really want to do the move I believe it needs misdirection.
I would recommend using a different control, there are hundreds of controls, many of which are completely invisible and far better than the DDC.
If you want a control that uses an 'optical illusion' I would suggest Lee Asher's Losing Control and Pulp Friction.
Okay. Maybe you don´t read much but it is a general opinion that sleights no matter how good they are should be done while looking away from your hands and having eye contact with the spectator. I could give you dozens of sources in literature where this is discussed.
And if you really have read my previous post you can see that I am not a firm supporter of this. Also I am not stating any form of facts so if it is "true" or not has nothing to do with it.
Thanks for letting me know that there are other controls then ddc. I did´t realize that...
I've seen that in many older books, although recently i've heard many people suggest it probably isn't a good idea to do this with every sleight.
What was the point of the sarcastic comment? I simply suggested 2 other controls that use optical illusions of some sort which is what you said liked. How am I supposed to know if you've heard of them?
Shhh, you don't want people to know about this book ;p
What you are saying is true. Here is the idea: If you want it as an effect, you want the effect to be as clean as possible. For example, in David Williamson's trick, you need a break, get this while the focus is not on the deck. Then, when you do the move, its a secret move, but it is the effect, you want the focus to be on the deck if you want them to appreciate the effect.
Take color changes for example, where you palm off a card. you want this effect: Change the card with your hands appearantly empty.
So you show your right hand or flash it showing that its empty. Take the deck and palm flash the left hand in the action of blowing on it or whatever. The focus is on the hands or anything closer to them, now the left hand comes back, and the hands come together you steal the bottom card to the right hand, you're not focusing your eye on the deck during all this, while you did a secret move and mind you, you should do it well enough that even the guy looking over won't see a thing.
The right hand goes to your side or whatever, as you display the top card, right hand comes over, and do the change, there is a secret move, but its done with them looking down on the deck because they need to look down to appreciate the effect.
Take the pass. One of my pet peeves in magic is magicians who do it badly with an excuse "I do it with misdirection". I wrote about that in other thread.
Larry Jennings did the pass while there is heat because he's doing it to feel happy inside that his pass can fly. I did this many times too ( pass, cut, then pass again ). I even do the pass then overhand shuffle, some people think its pointless, which is true from an effect standpoint, but hey, I feel happy inside, and they are fooled, win-win situation, can't be bad eh?
( once upon time I did 8 top changes in a row as an ACR. the effect was really boring for the friend I was performing to, but I was soo excited about it as that was my first time getting the darn change down lol )However, I noticed that if I'm a real magician (
weird but really helps ), when they return their card, I'd look at them. I don't look at them to cover a move, I look at them because its how the effect look if it was real. ( I'm talking about controlling their card to the top to be used in any trick by the way. ACRs are different ) This is not what you call a 100% misdirection, some people will still look down at the deck, hence I do the pass well enough that it will fool the people burning the deck.If you have Card College 2, open the theory chapter, subtitle "Misdirection", it explains the Fred Kaps quote "Misdirect all the time".
For the same reason a painter draws an average drawing, while Leonardo Da Vinci does a master piece. This may sound deep
, in normal words:A) I don't want to get caught. For me getting caught is like getting killed. ( and I got "killed" many times >_< )
B) Perfecting a sleight is not only about perfecting its mechanics. Many sleights require correct timing and most importantly, must look like nothing has happened. Palming, for example, require both hands to hold the deck. If you are looking at them, then looked at the deck with no appearant reason, brought both hands together, and palmed off a card, even if the spectator does't see anything, they will suspect something ( "I know he did something but I didn't know what")
If you spread the deck, then square it up, you can palm the card deceptively WHILE you are looking at them. Because no one will spread the cards and square them, while looking down at the deck. Try it now, spread the deck, then square it. Do you look on the deck while you square it, or look somewhere else? This is the way your body language do it when nothing is done, you need to imitate this body language when doing a sleight. In other words, you're not looking at them to cover the move, but you are looking at them because this is the way your body do it normally. ( unless you body has other way to do it! )
C) The beauty of card handling. Card handling is an art itself only appreciated by cardmen. A pass done nicely is a beauty, a double lift done nicely looks awesome. Magic is an art, and card handling is an art as well. You'll only appreciate this when you see sleights done well. I have VHS collection of Ed Marlo, handling the deck itself shows his respect for it. This might sound very Zen, but its really true. For more info, see "Technique" chapter in Card College 2.
senchi, knowing you on the forums you may say that this is all philosophy, trust me its not >__< ...
Get Card College 2! The chapters on misdirection, technique and card conjuring are amazing!
Cheers, sorry for the long reply man
Medifro, just like you I like the scholar aspect of magic. I respect your knowledge and I am well aware of the common opinions on card handling and misdirection.
My point was simply that there are sleights made to look fair and to deceive at closest scrutiny. And I also believe that they are intended to be used under such conditions.
I personally want people to look at the deck as much as the technique allows. The deck is the stage and we are the spectators. This is not unnatural to me.. If I can make them burn the deck and still bring that card from the middle of the deck to the top then it is more important for magic then what natural body language dictates. That is my own opinion
Medifro there is also a danger in collecting too much information on magic. You end up sounding like all those prefaces of all those magic books. That is why your pass discussion bugged me. It was like summary of endless books on subject. Do you agree with absolutely everything you read? Is there critical thinking coming from you? Or is everything Marlo, Kaps and Co. state the only truth? I am not saying this to be rude because I can tell that you truly are passionate about magic which I respect a lot
My point was simply that there are sleights made to look fair and to deceive at closest scrutiny. And I also believe that they are intended to be used under such conditions.
I personally want people to look at the deck as much as the technique allows. The deck is the stage and we are the spectators. This is not unnatural to me.. If I can make them burn the deck and still bring that card from the middle of the deck to the top then it is more important for magic then what natural body language dictates. That is my own opinion
Medifro there is also a danger in collecting too much information on magic. You end up sounding like all those prefaces of all those magic books. That is why your pass discussion bugged me. It was like summary of endless books on subject. Do you agree with absolutely everything you read? Is there critical thinking coming from you? Or is everything Marlo, Kaps and Co. state the only truth? I am not saying this to be rude because I can tell that you truly are passionate about magic which I respect a lot
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Sorry. I just felt you had missed my point from my earlier post which was written in response to Medifro. I apologize for the sarcasm... just felt that you jumped into discussion without reading the post.
This is not unnatural to me.. If I can make them burn the deck and still bring that card from the middle of the deck to the top then it is more important for magic then what natural body language dictates. That is my own opinion
That is why, my friend, magic is an art. Different artists, different appraoches. Entertaining people is all what matters at the end.
I know what you mean, and don't worry about that. Although I might sound like a reference book, I do think about everything I read and made up my own theories that I know many won't agree on ( I disagree with Erdnase, Vernon and Marlo on some points, one of them Vernon students will kill me for disagreeing with ).
The thing about misdirection above, although Fred Kaps expanded on the subject, I applied it my own approaches on it, and what you read above is from my understanding and experience on the subject.My pass discussion was about 40% my own thoughts, and 100% my interpretation on the subject. The idea of the sound was from my own thinking ( although I found it later on in Ouellet's book ). I don't read and add automaticly, I read, think, and learn. I refer alot because A) It makes the post more professional B) students might want to check these names and C) these books write information much better than I can do here, because this is a puplic forum, and I'm not that good in putting ideas into words.
Glad to know another student who's, as Vernon would say, "Using his head", cheers
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I wish we were living in the same country and city Unfortunately my English prevents me from expressing my self the way I would like to... anyways.. Thanks for dedicating time and energy to write lengthy and meaningful comments.
Cheers!
Unfortunately my English prevents me from expressing my self the way I would like to... anyways.. Thanks for dedicating time and energy to write lengthy and meaningful comments. Cheers!
I wish we were living in the same country and city
Cheers!
www.freetranslation.com
I used it for Spanish homework.
Back to DDC.
I actually like using the control because it looks like nothing has happened and my pass is still in development. It just needs to be very smooth in order to fool people.
Like Medifro, I urge everyone to seek out Card College 2 and read the end of the book which covers a lot of interesting subjects and thoughts on the theories of magic.
I actually like using the control because it looks like nothing has happened and my pass is still in development. It just needs to be very smooth in order to fool people.
Like Medifro, I urge everyone to seek out Card College 2 and read the end of the book which covers a lot of interesting subjects and thoughts on the theories of magic.