Exposure vs. Teaching - Potato/Tomato?

I have been thinking about making a website for a while with videos and articles, to share some of my new ideas and help out (and get help from) the online magic community. But so many people are very anti-exposure lately - with the popularity of YouTube and the likes. With 12 year old kids revelaing sleights invented by hard working professionals, it seems unless you're charging for it you're considered revealing/exposing. I'm not looking at charging, but do want to share and discuss serious tricks and sleights.

So before I went ahead with this, I just wanted to get a feel for people's reactions before putting in much effort and getting slammed for it.

The main reason I'm doing it is just for the respect and the kind of 'buzz' you get when you know people are out there performing things you came up with and or helped them with. And of course, learning as much as I can from anyone with anything to contribute.

So yeah, would you visit the site? would you like it? would you slam me for revealing?

lemme know
 
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I have been thinking about making a website for a while with videos and articles, to share some of my new ideas and help out (and get help from) the online magic community. But so many people are very anti-exposure lately - with the popularity of YouTube and the likes. With 12 year old kids revelaing slights invented by hard working professionals, it seems unless you're charging for it you're considered revealing/exposing. I'm not looking at charging, but do want to share and discuss serious tricks and slights.

So before I went ahead with this, I just wanted to get a feel for people's reactions before putting in much effort and getting slammed for it.

The main reason I'm doing it is just for the respect and the kind of 'buzz' you get when you know people are out there performing things you came up with and or helped them with. And of course, learning as much as I can from anyone with anything to contribute.

So yeah, would you visit the site? would you like it? would you slam me for revealing?

lemme know

As long as you teah necessary sleights such as double lift, pass, 1 or 2 tricks, it wouldn't hurt. But if you teach someone elses trick then something is definately wrong with your site.
 
No way would I teach other people's branded tricks or slights, I would also have a registrar so if anyone sold/taught anything I came up with I would know who and take appropriate action. I would expect no less if I was caught teaching someone elses trick.

I would give/show advice on old selights (Erdnase, Vernon etc.) like mentioned, but anything from someone else, pro or amateur, NEVER.


So come on, more comments/questions!
 
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Deryn

Elite Member
Sep 4, 2007
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Tampa Bay, FL
www.instagram.com
...so many people are very anti-exposure lately...

"Lately?" I think exposure has been frowned upon since the beginning of time.

Also, are you even 'qualified' or good enough to give advice on magic? Your thread is entitled "potato/tomato".. so what you think is ok, some may consider it not so great. Think about what you're getting yourself into before you go full force with this.

-Deryn
 
Sep 1, 2007
662
2
Please make sure that if you do go ahead with this project, you spell "sleights" correctly...;)
 
Nov 6, 2007
140
0
I think it's bad enough sleights like the double lift and the pass have made their way out for all of the public to see.

What a mess :confused:
 


"Lately?" I think exposure has been frowned upon since the beginning of time.

Also, are you even 'qualified' or good enough to give advice on magic? Your thread is entitled "potato/tomato".. so what you think is ok, some may consider it not so great. Think about what you're getting yourself into before you go full force with this.

-Deryn

Well of course blatant exposure has always been frowned upon, but the line between exposure and teaching needs to be more clearly defined now more than ever.

Magic is not a trade (performing is) but an art, so the only qualifications you need to give advice or even teach an art are your actions and opinions drawn upon from your experiences. I used the phrase "Potato/Tomato" to illustrate that exposing and teaching are two separate things that are sometimes put into the wrong category.

And so what if a few laymen know what a double lift is, I bet it didn't come from exposure though, I'd like to see a raise of hands of people who have NEVER had anyone say, "hey, you turned over two cards didn't you?!?" No one....? Do you know what would happen if everyone knew what a double lift was? We'd have to get creative, use more misdirection, or heaven forbid, use something else!

Knowledge is free right? There are a few legal copies of Expert at the Card Table floating around the internet right? How is anybody demonstrating how to do anything in that book, either by text or video, considered unethical?
 
Dec 4, 2007
1,074
2
www.thrallmind.com
I think it's bad enough sleights like the double lift and the pass have made their way out for all of the public to see.

What a mess :confused:

What we need to do is perform the magic so flawlessly, there is no thought in their minds that we have performed these during the routine. Face it, most kids who reveal the pass suck at it (which is why they reveal in the first place...), and the same goes for the double lift, and any other basic sleight. People who have seen these are looking for certain things to be present before they assume you are using a certain sleight. If you can pull of the sleight without a hitch, they wont see it coming.

Just something I noticed when performing.

-ThrallMind
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
Some things to think about:

1) Given the time allotted and the resources available to the student, are they empowered after your tutorial to make real use of that information.

I have been teaching magic for over 20 years, and this to me is the first question I ask: Will they be able to truly learn this information after I have spent time with them. If not, then they have no reason to care. We have just thrown that information away.

For example, none of my students have access to a professional stage with lighting, and none of them own the equipment to saw someone in half. For me to explain that trick would be exposure - there is no way they can master, or make real use, of that information. They have no reason to protect it, and they have no reason to know it. Now, if one of them DID buy the stuff and came to me for help, that would be different.

Likewise, when I teach a card trick, I make sure that the students will be able to understand the concepts fully and achieve a degree of understanding required for real use. I would never teach the classic force to beginners or even intermediates, because that technique requires a degree of understanding and commitment that they have not developed. Further, given the length of my classes, I know there is no way I can get them to a level of competence in the time we have. It is my responsibility to make sure the material I release is going to be respected.

Heck, I don't even teach the KEY card because even though the technique is easy to master, it can be such a powerful tool and I do not want to expose that tool to those who truly are not ready to appreciate the depth of use this technique can be employed for.

I CAN teach the French Drop in the amount of time I have, cover the theoretical essentials in a manner that will be understood, and get everyone to a level of competence. I can make sure that when they leave, they have a sense of ownership of that idea.

So, if the trick requires something they will not have - a prop, a venue, an understanding, or a skill, then to teach it to them is exposure.

2) What investment has the student made? If there is no investment, then it is probably exposure.

Now, I'm not suggesting investment means they "paid money." Buying a book, spending time researching in a library, being a roadie for a mentor, even just proving their seriousness would all establish that the person is genuinely interested. Simply doing a search on google hardly qualifies as a serious investment of one's time. If you had a way to establish that the people viewing were serious in their pursuit of magic - for example, you made this DVD for people who you met with every week for a mini magic session - then that would be one step to establishing the difference between teaching and exposure.

I have had people express an interest in learning a certain trick, for example. I would give them some task - something that would be a skill needed in order to achieve mastery of that trick. If they took to time to develop that skill, then I know they may be serious in their interest. I will offer another step, and another. Then, I will help them put them together. But by then, I know they are serious, and I know they will respect and protect the information shared. They earned it. Didn't cost them a dime, but they earned it.

3) Is the trick currently being marketed?

If the trick is being sold in any proprietary way?

If a trick is being sold as a dealer's item, on someone's DVD, or in someone's book, it is wrong to teach that trick without first receiving their permission. Of course, there is a grey area here. For example, if you wanted to teach a truly classic trick that might be on someone's beginner DVD, as long as you own the original source and truly found that trick in the original source on your own, then it would be ok to teach that trick.

4) Is the trick associated with a professional performer?

I don't care if it's David Blaine, Derren Brown, or the magician you saw at the local restaurant last week - it's wrong to fish for material from someone else's act. If you see something you like in someone's act, ask THEM! Don't go behind their back and ask for someone to expose their secret for you, and don't do behind their back and expose their secret to someone else.

Even if it's a trick in print, they found it, they polished it, they made it something special - everyone else overlooked it. To teach that trick is to take something away from them.

Imagine is the shoe were on the other foot.

This is not everything you need to consider, but its a good start. Finally, I leave with this question(s):

Why should any of us offer free tutorials on magic in a public forum? Does that help our cause? Afterall, if someone were interested, wouldn't they find a magic book in a library, a magic shop in their state, a magician in their town? Does making things easier make things better? Can we ensure that the people who are looking at these tutorials use this information in a positive, respectful manner? Is it worth taking the risk if we can't?
 
D

Deleted member 2755

Guest
If you make a site to teach something such as.... Fallen.... it's exposure. If you teach Fallen with maybe a spinoff name or change it slightly... it's exposure.

If you are stating your OWN ideas and your OWN effects, then sure. That is your own stuff and you are exposing it (hehe) to everyone. It's up to you if you want to do that. If you aren't making a DVD or book about it... go right ahead. That only adds to the magic community.

-Doug
 
What about if the site was invite/subscription only, would that make people more comfortable? Again, I would never expose other people's work or what people are trying to make a living off of.

The only tricks I would show would be mine alone (unless someone else had something to contribute.)





P.S. why would you need to expose Fallen, it's obviously simple. I've only watched the performance video once and I can perform it flawless. Does that mean I've stolen it, or did he reveal it?
 
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