Intermediate Card Magic

[Josh Burch]

I got another email from a young magician claiming to be an intermediate card guy. He was nowhere near intermediate in my view, yet he was trying to convince me he was on the advanced side of intermediate.

My question to you is, "At what point do you graduate from a beginner to intermediate?"

In my view you have to have a basic knowledge base and skill base.

As far as knowledge goes, you should know who Ed Marlo, S.W. Erdnase and Dai Vernon were. You should also know the plot of some of the classics; Oil and Water, Triumph, Transposition, Sandwich, Collectors, Ambitious Card, twisting the aces, any card at any number, and the Chicago Opener.

As far as skills go, you should comfortably be able to do a control, force, false count (elmsley, hammon, mirror etc.), a false dealing (neck tie seconds, the glide etc), a double turnover, a card spring, a color change, a riffle shuffle with and without a table, anot overhand shuffle, a Hindu shuffle, a concealment of some kind (palm, cop or mercury card fold) and be able to present more than a pick a card trick.

If you don't fit those things you are still a beginner in my book. What do you think?

 

[Gabriel Z.]

I can check off about 90% of this stuff, does that make me an intermediate card guy? Short answer No. I consider myself an amateur still I even say so on my Vimeo and Instagram page...Hey better to be safe than sorry.. I think that we should move past labels and get down to the nitty gritty. If someone says they have a 5 foot vertical leap take them to a basketball court and have them prove it. I don't know the guy you are talking about or how young he is, but if he says he is intermediate card level then give him room to prove it. Did you get a video of him performing the above Card Guy SAT? I think that we should move past labels for this reason alone, I suffer from Schizophrenia and I'm getting better (I believe and so do doctors).. So if I tell someone I'm Schizophrenic but I'm better most will believe the labels or stereotypes put forth by society and probably ignore the fact that I'm getting better. It also depends on your standards I guess too , maybe in his pond he is a big fish but when he gets out into bigger waters he just won't make it and get swallowed up by the big guys. Most of us have to find this out the hard way, life is the best teacher.

 

[CWhite]

I can check off about 90% of this stuff, does that make me an intermediate card guy? Short answer No. I consider myself an amateur still I even say so on my Vimeo and Instagram page...Hey better to be safe than sorry.. I think that we should move past labels and get down to the nitty gritty. If someone says they have a 5 foot vertical leap take them to a basketball court and have them prove it. I don't know the guy you are talking about or how young he is, but if he says he is intermediate card level then give him room to prove it. Did you get a video of him performing the above Card Guy SAT? I think that we should move past labels for this reason alone, I suffer from Schizophrenia and I'm getting better (I believe and so do doctors).. So if I tell someone I'm Schizophrenic but I'm better most will believe the labels or stereotypes put forth by society and probably ignore the fact that I'm getting better. It also depends on your standards I guess too , maybe in his pond he is a big fish but when he gets out into bigger waters he just won't make it and get swallowed up by the big guys. Most of us have to find this out the hard way, life is the best teacher.

Best. Post. Ever......

 

[RealityOne]

My question to you is, "At what point do you graduate from a beginner to intermediate?"

I'll let you know when I get there.

 

[Josh Burch]

I consider myself an amateur

Dai Vernon is referred to as an amateur. Of course this doesn't mean he was a beginner. He was undeniable an expert at card magic. I think most would say that amateur, semi-professional, and professional is a financial reflection, not knowledge based. I assume by amateur, you mean a beginner. To be more clear I'd say that there were at least 3 stages of proficiency in technical skill and knowledge; beginner, intermediate and advanced.

If someone says they have a 5 foot vertical leap take them to a basketball court and have them prove it. I don't know the guy you are talking about or how young he is, but if he says he is intermediate card level then give him room to prove it. Did you get a video of him performing the above Card Guy SAT?

To give a little bit of back story he asked about a fairly advanced routine. He introduced himself as an intermediate card magician, but as I started to talk I lost him very quickly. It was clear that he didn't pass any type of card magic SAT. He was familiar with a double lift and the 21 card card trick. As far as I could tell he didn't know much more.

I know, he's in a tough position, how can you not know what you don't know? Then again, when I tried to lay down the foundation for how he could really understand the routine in mind he was not happy with the steps he'd have to take before he understood even a part of it.

It also depends on your standards I guess too, maybe in his pond he is a big fish but when he gets out into bigger waters he just won't make it and get swallowed up by the big guys.

That's why I proposed a set of standards that are essential for a beginner of card magic to know in my book. I would like to know what the larger pond of Theory11 thinks are the standards for a beginner.

If we all agree on the standards then we can start to get an idea of where we are and what we need to accomplish to progress. This is a discussion on determining the standards in our pond. What do you think is necessary to know to be an intermediate card magician?

Most of us have to find this out the hard way, life is the best teacher.

I'm a French teacher. Before I began teaching I had to take a series of tests to determine my proficiency in the language. I scored an advanced-low proficiency. Upon receiving this score the school system knew that I was good enough to teach beginning students French. My French classes were divided according to proficiency as well. This is beneficial because I can teach them in language that they are familiar with in a way that effectively uses their past knowledge. A 5th year French student has very different experiences than a 1st year student. For a first year I might have to explain what a verb is an advanced student could conjugate a reflexive verb in a difficult tense. Knowing a student's level is very important for a teacher.

Here on Theory11 and other magic sites there are products for sale. They mark these products with difficulty meters. If I'm going to purchase an effect or suggest an effect for someone else to perform I better have an understanding of this rating system or I'm setting up for a wave of frustration.

In order to progress as a student I want to know what my status is. In order to teach effectively I want to know where my students are.

 

[CWhite]

Great point! I just think when it comes to the arts, it's difficult to "rate" people.
I consider myself a tinkerer lol
I have never performed, I know of all the tricks you mentioned and I can perform a double lift among other sleights.
I've been trying for 3 years and haven't been able to perform a card spring, which my favorite magician performs regularly.
I own a shit ton of tricks and gimmicks but I feel bad as they will probably never see a performance.
So for a label... a Tinkerer suits me I guess.

 

[obrienmagic]

I see 5 categories believe it or not. They are very grey but each have distinct characteristics.

-Novice: Never held a deck of cards before, and if they are learning magic 99.9% of the time they are performing 100% self working tricks like 21CT, 4 ace trick, etc.

-Beginner: The beginner is usually beginning to learn the basics of sleight of hand including how to shuffle cards, perform basic sleights, controls, etc.

-Intermediate: The intermediate magician should have a firm understanding of the basics as well as be able to perform them properly. More advanced sleights may be attempted but usually they have yet to master very difficult sleights.

-Advanced: these people can perform advanced sleights well and cleanly.

-Master: This category is reserved for people that have spent years mastering techniques. Very few people fall into this category.... People like Shoot Ogawa, Helder Guimaraes, Lennart Green, etc.

Like i said it is grey but this is the general guide i follow. And this is strictly for technique. This does NOT take their performance or presentation into question at all. For example Darren Brown is one of the best magicians/mentalists in the world, but i would place him into the intermediate category as a technician as he doesn't really do hard sleights.

 

[Gabriel Z.]

Dai Vernon is referred to as an amateur. Of course this doesn't mean he was a beginner. He was undeniable an expert at card magic. I think most would say that amateur, semi-professional, and professional is a financial reflection, not knowledge based. I assume by amateur, you mean a beginner. To be more clear I'd say that there were at least 3 stages of proficiency in technical skill and knowledge; beginner, intermediate and advanced.



To give a little bit of back story he asked about a fairly advanced routine. He introduced himself as an intermediate card magician, but as I started to talk I lost him very quickly. It was clear that he didn't pass any type of card magic SAT. He was familiar with a double lift and the 21 card card trick. As far as I could tell he didn't know much more.

I know, he's in a tough position, how can you not know what you don't know? Then again, when I tried to lay down the foundation for how he could really understand the routine in mind he was not happy with the steps he'd have to take before he understood even a part of it.



That's why I proposed a set of standards that are essential for a beginner of card magic to know in my book. I would like to know what the larger pond of Theory11 thinks are the standards for a beginner.

If we all agree on the standards then we can start to get an idea of where we are and what we need to accomplish to progress. This is a discussion on determining the standards in our pond. What do you think is necessary to know to be an intermediate card magician?



I'm a French teacher. Before I began teaching I had to take a series of tests to determine my proficiency in the language. I scored an advanced-low proficiency. Upon receiving this score the school system knew that I was good enough to teach beginning students French. My French classes were divided according to proficiency as well. This is beneficial because I can teach them in language that they are familiar with in a way that effectively uses their past knowledge. A 5th year French student has very different experiences than a 1st year student. For a first year I might have to explain what a verb is an advanced student could conjugate a reflexive verb in a difficult tense. Knowing a student's level is very important for a teacher.

Here on Theory11 and other magic sites there are products for sale. They mark these products with difficulty meters. If I'm going to purchase an effect or suggest an effect for someone else to perform I better have an understanding of this rating system or I'm setting up for a wave of frustration.

In order to progress as a student I want to know what my status is. In order to teach effectively I want to know where my students are.

I think you are right, they should have some sort of proficiency test for the performing arts. They have them for all other subjects why not card magic? I remember watching this documentary by R.Paul Wilson and Jason England I believe it was "Our Magic" where the interviewer asks "How do you become a magician?" The magician says everything else is easy to become except a magician. You want to be a lawyer, go to law school take the bar exam, if you want to be a Brain surgeon go to medical school etc.. After fumbling with cards for about 4 years now I can safely say I'm not a beginner because that is defined as someone who just started a pursuit or endeavor and that becomes a reflection of time. So good question is where do you or I for that matter fit? If Dai Vernon was considered an amateur then I certainly can't be that!

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

how can you not know what you don't know?

Dunning Kruger.

I feel like "beginners" also go through a few different phrases, as well. At first you see all these possibilities and it seems like you'll never be able to learn it all. Then you start to get some skills, and you start to learn how to learn more. Then you hit a point where you start to connect the dots and see that many tricks are just variations of simple themes, and your learning source (usually YT in these instances) seems to run out of "new" things to learn. So you must have moved past the beginner level, right?

But then you talk to someone who knows a thing or two, and/or you start learning from better sources, and you realize you still know nothing, Jon Snow.

Personally, I just don't worry about difficulty levels when wanting to learn something. I will work at it until I get it, if I want to get it. But it does get tricky when trying to explain it to others. That's why I mostly leave teaching to those who have the patience for it.

 

[ParkinT]

Personally, I just don't worry about difficulty levels when wanting to learn something. I will work at it until I get it, if I want to get it.

I agree with that attitude. It requires patience and tenacity but the payoff is an immense amount of satisfaction. And the time you invest in learning/mastering a skill (sleight) is repaid because you will have it for life.

 

[IanDD]

Im definitely at the beginner end of the scale

I think the great thing with this kind of craft is that everyone was a beginner once, and the only way to advance is by putting in lots of practice, from the little I have read some people will spend there whole lives practising and perfecting one move.

I think sometimes people see a stigma with being called a beginner, its never particularly bothered me as we all have to start somewhere. I always think people show there competency by the way they help out those that are starting out

 

[ParkinT]

You can sharpen your presentation skills and gain confidence by performing effects that are simple to execute. Many magicians look down upon "self-working" card tricks. If we don't lose sight of our primary goal - to entertain and mystify - the actual 'process' (e.g. the method) to that end is irrelevant. Learning sleights and 'moves' is fun and rewarding.
Don't get bogged down in that, as a beginner. Be sure to HAVE FUN and simply BE YOURSELF while entertaining others.
This experience is invaluable and has no substitute (there are no shortcuts).

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Just to bring this up, I've noticed this thing that happens to almost every newer magician (including me, and some friends I've made on the forums):

1. Sees a couple YouTube videos about magic
2. Performs a couple tricks
3. Goes deeper into YouTube
4. Thinks they know everything
5. Calls themselves Intermediate
6. Finds either a forums page like this or buys the Royal Road
7. Realizes they are a beginner
8. Starts really working at magic.
9. Continually looks for more and more knowledge
10. Always sees themselves as a beginner, especially when looking at greats, like Marlo and Vernon

I have seen this happen to so many people, and have experienced it myself.

 

[Josh Burch]

Just to bring this up, I've noticed this thing that happens to almost every newer magician (including me, and some friends I've made on the forums):

1. Sees a couple YouTube videos about magic
2. Performs a couple tricks
3. Goes deeper into YouTube
4. Thinks they know everything
5. Calls themselves Intermediate
6. Finds either a forums page like this or buys the Royal Road
7. Realizes they are a beginner
8. Starts really working at magic.
9. Continually looks for more and more knowledge
10. Always sees themselves as a beginner, especially when looking at greats, like Marlo and Vernon

I have seen this happen to so many people, and have experienced it myself.

So many great responses to this thread.

Haha, I think you nailed it for many magicians here and probably for this kid as well.

 

[Hgagnon]

Just to bring this up, I've noticed this thing that happens to almost every newer magician (including me, and some friends I've made on the forums):

1. Sees a couple YouTube videos about magic
2. Performs a couple tricks
3. Goes deeper into YouTube
4. Thinks they know everything
5. Calls themselves Intermediate
6. Finds either a forums page like this or buys the Royal Road
7. Realizes they are a beginner
8. Starts really working at magic.
9. Continually looks for more and more knowledge
10. Always sees themselves as a beginner, especially when looking at greats, like Marlo and Vernon

I have seen this happen to so many people, and have experienced it myself.

This happened with me for sure. I have only been in magic 4 months now and just finished royal road and am starting Expert card technique. I don't think 4 and 5 are true to everyone (at least not myself) because when watching Penn and Teller or any magic I see that and have no idea how to do any of it and I know that takes a lot of practice. I think this is defiantly a great point.

As to the original post, I think labels are overrated. I don't think anyone will ever be a "master" because new ideas will be invented forever. Just my thoughts

 

[Josh Burch]

This happened with me for sure. I have only been in magic 4 months now and just finished royal road and am starting Expert card technique. I don't think 4 and 5 are true to everyone (at least not myself) because when watching Penn and Teller or any magic I see that and have no idea how to do any of it and I know that takes a lot of practice. I think this is defiantly a great point.

I don't think anyone will ever be a "master" because new ideas will be invented forever.

You progress at any skill super quickly at first. As you progress it gets harder to get better.

I think there are masters, or at least experts in the field. I also think that being fooled or failing to be fooled is not a great metric to measure ones skills. In fact, magicians of all skill levels are constantly fooled, including experts.

 

[Juvator]

Maybe a criteria could be how well are you able to follow another magician? And how well you can deconstruct the movements he might have made? As in can you be fooled or not?

Oh and while typing this I actually read the last post you made haha, I probably saw the word fooled from the corner of my eyes and thought I had an original thought

But yeah anyone can be fooled I guess, but to some degree it does show some of your skill right? The more knowledge and insight you have the harder it is to fool you. Even if you have no idea what the technique is a certain degree of experience could allow you to deduce what happened. A beginner could definitely not deduce that. Still deducing and guessing is not the same as knowing.

Also as always a good post Maaz you know I kinda went through the same stages.. and I'm at the stage where i'm reading more Royal road now than watching videos. Because I realize it's much more useful to get a basic understanding of the, well, the basics first.

At first I thought I was doing pretty well too and that I at least had some natural proficiency in it, but I've recently joined a magic club as well. And I now know for a fact that I can't even perform a topsy turvy without fumbling it up haha. Mostly due to nerves though. But I'm happy I joined though. And also happy I joined this forum fairly early in my journey because I'm learning so much here for me that was step 2 after youtube I believe I even started by sharing a plagiarized video on youtube haha great way to make an introduction "woops"

 

[Bobbydigital]

I was literally just thinking about this today. As an adult learning of magic at what point do I get to call myself a Magician. I’m going through The royal road to card magic, dear god it’s long, and Bobo’s Modern Coin Magic to form my basic understanding of card and coin magic. Right now I just tell people that I know a few tricks, but I don’t go around calling myself a magician. I do hope that I can stay with it this time around and hopefully in a year of practice I can confidently say that yes I am a magician. A beginner, but a magician.