Multiple ways to achieve same thing...

G

GeeTwentyFive

Mar 9, 2018
9
3
21
Hello,

Before I start, I would like to give a quick backstory first.
I started magic at the age of 10, started with card magic, i was pretty inexperienced and had little to no magic experience at the time...
The problem was that I had been learning Public Domain magic, I was pretty young and foolish and it was a horrible decision...
I had been learning magic techniques (as in various methods of handling cards), but not magic trick (personal metaphore for routines), nor magic itself (as in presentation, posture, crowd control, diversions... because now i know that real magic happens in the specetator's eyes and real magic is not "Oh, look what I can do and how cool I am and how fast and smooth I can do all these fancy tricks")
And the techniques themselves we're not taught right... (well, most of them weren't)
Too late now, but I've moved on... I will return to card magic in the future but not right now...

Right now I am 14, I obtained a copy of J. B. Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, I started at March 4th, It's March 9th now so that would be 5 days of non-stop grinding to get as good as possible at Chapter 1 (Coin Concealments), and by good I mean natural hands, relaxation (as in no tension), and consistency... etc...

But, there has been a question that has been boughtering me ever since I started magic... There are multiple ways to achieve the exact same result, all very fast, consistent, and viable...

Let me give you an example (something random):

Let's say your doing a coin routine, blah blah, vanish, blah blah, more routines, blah blah, now your at the end and time for the big reveal,
You reach out behind the side of your specetator's head and are going to pull out a coin (you can show both of your hands empty with various methods)

Now, you can produce it from every single palm in the "Coin Concealments" section via any method...
CP - reverse moves that you would do to get into CP and put between thumb and index finger;
EP - reverse moves but leave on middle and ring (faster);
TP - just reverse moves for getting into thumb palm;
DP - self explanitory
Yea, you get the point, the exception is BTP which you would require a bit more movement and if done with right hand have to do on right ear and vice versa to keep the coin concealed...
I don't wanna continue this because I think that people get the basic point by now...
I know there are some factors for deciding what, how and when... I want to learn those factors...
Should I use CP because it looks the most natural, DP because of its fast productionablitity, replace CP with EP because its a more flexible version of CP and also faster to reverse moves?
(This is just an example, not actually planning to make a routine, I'm at Chapter 1...)

-G25
 
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RealityOne

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
The method you use depends on what you want to accomplish. What comes before it, what comes after it, what your style of handling the prop is, what appears most natural, what is most reliable, what is easiest to do, etc. each option has advantages and trade offs. My suggestion is to do effects the way they are explained in the book and then think of other ways of doing them. The author picked he method they use for a reason, so think about that. When you pick a different method, know your reason for using that method.
 
G

GeeTwentyFive

Mar 9, 2018
9
3
21
RealityOne said:
The method you use depends on what you want to accomplish. What comes before it, what comes after it, what your style of handling the prop is, what appears most natural, what is most reliable, what is easiest to do, etc. each option has advantages and trade offs. My suggestion is to do effects the way they are explained in the book and then think of other ways of doing them. The author picked he method they use for a reason, so think about that. When you pick a different method, know your reason for using that method.
Click to expand...


Yup, I already do the part where you said that if an author states something to be done in one way to do it.

So long story short its something that I have to learn over time and with experimentation I guess..
(If it was me I would pick the "looks most natural" one's more than half the time, It suits my style)
 
L

Lord Magic

Aug 15, 2017
651
413
GeeTwentyFive said:
Hello,

Before I start, I would like to give a quick backstory first.
I started magic at the age of 10, started with card magic, i was pretty inexperienced and had little to no magic experience at the time...
The problem was that I had been learning Public Domain magic, I was pretty young and foolish and it was a horrible decision...
I had been learning magic techniques (as in various methods of handling cards), but not magic trick (personal metaphore for routines), nor magic itself (as in presentation, posture, crowd control, diversions... because now i know that real magic happens in the specetator's eyes and real magic is not "Oh, look what I can do and how cool I am and how fast and smooth I can do all these fancy tricks")
And the techniques themselves we're not taught right... (well, most of them weren't)
Too late now, but I've moved on... I will return to card magic in the future but not right now...

Right now I am 14, I obtained a copy of J. B. Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, I started at March 4th, It's March 9th now so that would be 5 days of non-stop grinding to get as good as possible at Chapter 1 (Coin Concealments), and by good I mean natural hands, relaxation (as in no tension), and consistency... etc...

But, there has been a question that has been boughtering me ever since I started magic... There are multiple ways to achieve the exact same result, all very fast, consistent, and viable...

Let me give you an example (something random):

Let's say your doing a coin routine, blah blah, vanish, blah blah, more routines, blah blah, now your at the end and time for the big reveal,
You reach out behind the side of your specetator's head and are going to pull out a coin (you can show both of your hands empty with various methods)

Now, you can produce it from every single palm in the "Coin Concealments" section via any method...
CP - reverse moves that you would do to get into CP and put between thumb and index finger;
EP - reverse moves but leave on middle and ring (faster);
TP - just reverse moves for getting into thumb palm;
DP - self explanitory
Yea, you get the point, the exception is BTP which you would require a bit more movement and if done with right hand have to do on right ear and vice versa to keep the coin concealed...
I don't wanna continue this because I think that people get the basic point by now...
I know there are some factors for deciding what, how and when... I want to learn those factors...
Should I use CP because it looks the most natural, DP because of its fast productionablitity, replace CP with EP because its a more flexible version of CP and also faster to reverse moves?
(This is just an example, not actually planning to make a routine, I'm at Chapter 1...)

-G25
Click to expand...
You can actually, you know, stick to one single method and get really REALLY good at it, right?

For example, I did not even TRY to learn the classic pass unless it was ABSOLUTELY necessary for a routine. I mean, why should I?
Won't it be better if I used up that time to develop a new effect rather than a new trick? So I stuck with the double under cut for the longest time possible.

Anyways, learn any one or two concealments from the first chapter, it is not a workbook, you don't need to learn every single move and progress from there. It is kinda a boring approach, right? I dunno, if it works for you, stick with it. :)
Just don't get caught in the same trap that you got caught in while learning card magic.
Remember, the effect is always more important than the technique.
After that, it's what you want...if you feel like you wanna master all of chapter one, go on, it's actually a good decision. But I have had the book for three years now and have not tried mastering anything other than the Classic Palm and well, the Finger Palm was the simplest of things. And am not exactly doing terribly or something. :)
 
G

GeeTwentyFive

Mar 9, 2018
9
3
21
Lord Magic said:
You can actually, you know, stick to one single method and get really REALLY good at it, right?

For example, I did not even TRY to learn the classic pass unless it was ABSOLUTELY necessary for a routine. I mean, why should I?
Won't it be better if I used up that time to develop a new effect rather than a new trick? So I stuck with the double under cut for the longest time possible.

Anyways, learn any one or two concealments from the first chapter, it is not a workbook, you don't need to learn every single move and progress from there. It is kinda a boring approach, right? I dunno, if it works for you, stick with it. :)
Just don't get caught in the same trap that you got caught in while learning card magic.
Remember, the effect is always more important than the technique.
After that, it's what you want...if you feel like you wanna master all of chapter one, go on, it's actually a good decision. But I have had the book for three years now and have not tried mastering anything other than the Classic Palm and well, the Finger Palm was the simplest of things. And am not exactly doing terribly or something. :)
Click to expand...

Well, considering that I wrote down every single move and variation of that move and variation of the variation of that move thats in the book (so I don't miss any whenever I practice) pretty much confirms that I'm going to be thorough when reading, learning and practicing each and every chapter.

It's my decision, I'm taking it all in like a dry sponge.
 
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L

Lord Magic

Aug 15, 2017
651
413
GeeTwentyFive said:
Well, considering that I wrote down every single move and variation of that move and variation of the variation of that move thats in the book (so I don't miss any whenever I practice) pretty much confirms that I'm going to be thorough when reading, learning and practicing each and every chapter.

It's my decision, I'm taking it all in like a dry sponge.
Click to expand...
Sure!
Best of Luck! :)
 
S

sleightofhanddeception

Mar 16, 2018
47
39
it depends. For example, as you said you want to do is to make a coin appear from the spectators ear. What I would do (it works for me, however I am not saying it will work with everyone) is to firstly decide how you want the hand to look. Do you want to make it look natural? do you want to make it look empty? Lets say you want to make it look natural. What I would then do is to look at what is the most natural position of your hands. This might sound strange, but look at the position of your hands when your relaxed, and from there choose the concealment that looks most natural for you. I would personally not learn all the concealments at the book because in my opinion it is better to get really good at a concealment which you have a use of, instead of being ok at many concealments witch you wont use. However I think it is good to read all the concealments, no learn, but its good to have them in mind when creating magic.
 
G

GeeTwentyFive

Mar 9, 2018
9
3
21
sleightofhanddeception said:
it depends. For example, as you said you want to do is to make a coin appear from the spectators ear. What I would do (it works for me, however I am not saying it will work with everyone) is to firstly decide how you want the hand to look. Do you want to make it look natural? do you want to make it look empty? Lets say you want to make it look natural. What I would then do is to look at what is the most natural position of your hands. This might sound strange, but look at the position of your hands when your relaxed, and from there choose the concealment that looks most natural for you. I would personally not learn all the concealments at the book because in my opinion it is better to get really good at a concealment which you have a use of, instead of being ok at many concealments witch you wont use. However I think it is good to read all the concealments, no learn, but its good to have them in mind when creating magic.
Click to expand...

1) The DP is amazing if lets say I'm doing it with my right hand on his right ear so he sees the inner part of my hand and it looks empty and the fingers are wide open

2) The FP and CP are the less wanted ones here, basically almost same thing but in the FP your fingers are closed so yeah

3) A better alternative to above ^, would be the EP because it mimics the CP's naturality, yet it has a way that you can get out of it to make it appear at the tip of your fingers, and not having to clinch a fist as CP/FP

4) TP, sees BACK of hand, and here in Bosnia its common as a joke for kids to stick coins in between their t**** and i***x fingers so... (suspicion alert!)

5) BTP, sees FRONT of hand, less commonly used, more natural than DP, the fist clinch isn't much of a problem considering that they saw the front so this one leads ahead of DP

6) BFC, well, no explanation needed here... similar to BTP but worser because completely closed fingers

7) FFH/BP read above ^

And that covers them, even though I don't want to pull a coin behind someones ear (made as an example), I have figured out what to do, BTP wins over DP because thumb is in more of a natural position, besides that they're equally matched (somewhat) in everything else, unless you randomly want to turn your hand and show both sides of course...
 
S

sleightofhanddeception

Mar 16, 2018
47
39
For the coin issue I would train with the largest coin in your country. When you have just begun with coin magic I wouldn't bother on spending money on halv dollars yet. When I got started in magic I had to also use a coin that was heavyer and smaller than a halv dollar, and I understand it can sometimes be a pain in the ass, but its a good thing of because in any kind of routine you can calmly borrow a coin. I would also ask for people and family bembers for old coins (that you can't pay with anymore), and you will be suprised by what kind of coins they will give you. In that way you can use coins that people in your country are/were familiar with, and you also save money.

By the way, sorry for any spelling mistakes.
 
G

GeeTwentyFive

Mar 9, 2018
9
3
21
sleightofhanddeception said:
For the coin issue I would train with the largest coin in your country. When you have just begun with coin magic I wouldn't bother on spending money on halv dollars yet. When I got started in magic I had to also use a coin that was heavyer and smaller than a halv dollar, and I understand it can sometimes be a pain in the ass, but its a good thing of because in any kind of routine you can calmly borrow a coin. I would also ask for people and family bembers for old coins (that you can't pay with anymore), and you will be suprised by what kind of coins they will give you. In that way you can use coins that people in your country are/were familiar with, and you also save money.

By the way, sorry for any spelling mistakes.
Click to expand...


The Bosnian 5KM coin is the most expensive coin in Bosnia, and Bosnia is a poor country.
I'm not using it for performing, no no no, I'll be moving to Germany with my family soon, in about a year or so (when I finish 9th grade).

And when I get there, first off we'll have more money because of reasons (don't ask).
Second off via that money I can get half dollars OR coins designed for magic, I've heard of "palming coins"
 
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