Perception

[MentalAlex]

First of all, Hello to all of you!

I'm a mentalist out of Dallas, Texas, and I have a question I'd like to ask you all as a group, if I may.

As a mentalist, I have a different idea of what magic is than most magicians.

When I perform, my audience generally goes away "understanding" how my effects work. I fool them, but they don't feel (hopefully that they've been fooled in the slightest.

My question is a simple one.

Where do you draw the line between what is acceptable to lie about, and what is not.

I know you're all fine with lies like "Now, the card is genuinely lost in the pack".

But not with "I am using legitimate psychic powers."

But how about, "I used yoga-like self control to stop my pulse."?

Or, "I read minds based on psychological principles."?

All of these statements foster a false world view to a greater or lesser extent, but when does it become actually harmful to your audiences perception of reality?

Where do you draw the line? And more importantly, why?

 

[tsarothpaco]

There are going to be mixed opinions about this.

Personally I beleive instead of lying in many cases, just don't answer and leave them to wonder, don't tell them a lie about stopping your pulse just leave them to wonder.

Not much on the lines of what to lie about...but a different view of it.

~PaCo

 

[Ineski]

You should always tell the truth. Personally I never lie during my performances.

 

[s7venD]

Well in response to that i have one thing to say. When you were talking about - now your card is really lost in the deck. - the audience isn't stupid, they know that you are putting their card in the middle. You don't have to tell them. It's not like a big sleight that you have to be worried about just don't say unnecessary stuff.

 

[jjtee]

This is actually a really interesting discussion, and I hope it provides fruitful for all of us (would make a rather good Cerca Trova).

I see no problem in lying to the spectator, as long as it leads to a non harmful world view. In my eyes it's no different from acting or movies, they're a form of entertainment based on fooling and pretending. No different from magic and mentalism. It's so deeply ingrained in society and culture that films that portray a character as an actress tend to have her as a femme fatale (as in film noir films). Likewise before anyone attempts to peform something unbelievable they roll up their sleeves, as a gesture of good faith and non trickery.

Its when things are taken too far that trouble brews, mediums and psychics are fine if you want to believe in them. But not everybody does, and portraying your tricks as if you do is slightly wrong. It's a hard line to balance, but one that is necessary for that realistic edge.

In the UK we have a very famous Mentalist known as Derren Brown. I don't know how many of you in the US know him, but he is something rather special. (Off topic saw his stage show recently, bloody brilliant).

Before his shows he explains that "He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship. " Nice little disclaimer.

Showmanship. That is what we all employ regardless whether we are magicians or mentalists. Its for entertainment, and most spectators realise this. So tread gently!

 

[MentalAlex]

s7venD,

You can lie by implication. I wouldn't necessarily say any of those things outright. By apparently placing the card into the middle of the deck, and secretly controlling it to top or bottom or whatever, you are lying with your actions, just not with your words.


tsarothpaco,

I have a similar response to you. As performers of deception we lie, either with actions or words.

If you just stop your pulse, and allow people to wonder how you did it, there will be some that are certain you achieved it through some otherworldly ability like John Edwards or something. Even though you didn't lie to them directly, they still may end up reinforcing non-reality based world views because of the experience you provided. Now, are you responsible for strengthening people's belief in these things inadvertently?

jjtee,

Derren Brown is my hero!

 

[Bao Hoang]

I don't say it's ''magic'' but I say that they are illusions.

 

[MrHoudis]

Well, this is certainly a very interesting topic, and I'm quite happy it came up. For about six months, I have been very interested in this subject, reading up on such "psychics" as Sylvia Browne and Uri Geller. I belive that one can say that they are a "psychic", just as long as it is CLEAR to the audience that it is purely for entertainment purposes. If someone says after a performance "wow, I never believed that kind of stuff before, but now, I have a whole new outlook on life. I guess all of those scientists were wrong!", there may be a problem. Just as long as you make it clear that it is a tool you are using for their entertainment, it should be fine.

 

[ninja]

When you are preforming magic you are basicly lying to them. It doesn't matter which situation like and ACR oh i put it in the middle (lie) and it jumps to the top (lie) see it is pretty much all lies just a fun lie

 

[Nate Malini]

All of these statements foster a false world view to a greater or lesser extent, but when does it become actually harmful to your audiences perception of reality?

Where do you draw the line? And more importantly, why?

Im out to Blow minds and telling the truth wont cut it, eg. "I will now go back in time and put the card (or what ever )in your pocket before you pick it." I will stick to my guns to the end. to be Harmful to my audiences perception of reality is a goal ,not a line a wont cross.

But Alex already knew I would say that.

 

[MentalAlex]

I like you Malini, though you're a little scary... lol

Personally I subscribe to Bob Cassidy's idea of non-responsiblilty.

In my opinion, as long as a performer doesn't foster a dependence on his abilities, he has no further responsibility.

A person could be walking down the street and see something completely coincidental, and take it as evidence of otherworldly power. It happens all the time.

Ultimately, I believe one cannot be responsible for the belief systems of others. Who knows, someone might see your ACR and think it's proof of a higher power, you just can't tell how people will take things.

Now when you create a situation where someone is dependent on your abilities, THAT is stepping over the line. This is the psychic business, reiki masters, psychic surgeons, when people make decisions based on information that you are selling as genuine. You are intentionally misleading them for personal gain to their detriment.

I personally don't claim otherworldly powers in my usual work, but it is not because I believe it is immoral, it is just not the character I wish to portray. I believe it is not as commercial as the psychological games approach in my particular area.

However, if it was appropriate, I would claim genuine power without flinching, as long as I'm not selling them my ability, but I'm selling them entertainment.

My personal favorite, when I'm not working and I randomly approach a group of strangers, is that I washed up on a beach 3 years ago with total amnesia, and these weird abilities. I personally break character at the very end, and call it "performance art", but until I do, it is real, even to me. It's kind of a personal challenge.


Can I actually get level headed skeptical people to believe? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but I always give it my all. It's a good way to "stretch" your abilities.

But, even though I pop the bubble at the end, people are always enthralled with what I do, and never scoff at me calling it "art" because I have given them a glimpse into an alternate universe where these things ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

It's like theater, only real.

Of course I would LOVE it if someone could change my mind on this whole thing. Please nitpick mercilessly

 

[Nate Malini]

......A person could be walking down the street and see something completely coincidental, and take it as evidence of otherworldly power. It happens all the time.....

When that happens im taking credit for it.
Yea you can do tricks of skill but you also have a "gift" you dont like to talk about or show off.dont pop the bubble take it anyway you can M.alex ,I have a universal remote controller apart in front of me right now that im working on. I want to work the chanale up (forget the down)with my left big toe and the volume up (no down) with my right big toe. I need to keep the # pad intact so i can work the code programing with my hand in my pocket. the sensor that speaks to the tv has to be in my shirt some how.
Now when I go out to a house or sports bar Im ready to show my "powers" off (hands free) I hope I can pull it off but right now its an idea in front of me on this table.
Im doing all this work not to gather a crowed first and say "Every one look at this great thing I can do." but as a quick "how about this" bang bang bang done.
"I was born this way"
"I never yet had to charge my cell phone"(who has time to check?)
"I hate airports"
"thats why I got into magic tricks...as a cover"