Problems with Bottom deal!!

Feb 13, 2016
2
0
Hello all!!,
I have been using Daniel Madison's bottom dealing technique. I am getting better with it, but I have a problem with the top card. I cannot get it to go back to being completely flush, and sometimes a few of the other top cards move as well. Also, how to avoid the finger movement when the bottom card is taken away?In order to take the bottom card , my ring and pinkie have to move or it will get in the way of bottom card to be taken.... I was hoping for some tips, or for someone to say its part of the learning curve.

Apart from that,what do you think about DM bottom deal style? Is it good compare with erdnase bottom deal , Gene Maze bottom deal or mechanic bottom deal(strike or push off)? I am wondering whether if it is good to learn DM bottom deal style since some people said it is a bad technique...

Thanks,
Jacky
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,888
2,947
His bottom deal is solid, and the finger position does eliminate the problem of finger flash. It's very knacky, though. When I do bottom deals, which is not often, I use a technique that's roughly halfway between the standard Erdnase bottom deal and Madison's.

In regards to honing the technique - keep in mind what Penn said, when Madison was on Fool Us, "I have never seen anyone do that move that well that hasn't done hard time." What he means by that is he hasn't seen someone do the move that well who hasn't had hours upon hours every day to practice the move. Review the video and pay special attention to the points he makes about finger positions. The top card moving is another thing that comes with practice.

As for which move is better - don't worry about other people's opinion. Use the technique that works best for YOU. You'll probably end up tweaking anything you use anyway, as everyone's hands and rhythm is going to be a little different. I'm a big fan of learning as much as I can about any given technique, and then melting all that information together and hammering out my own technique from that.
 
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Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
Hello all!!,
I have been using Daniel Madison's bottom dealing technique. I am getting better with it, but I have a problem with the top card. I cannot get it to go back to being completely flush, and sometimes a few of the other top cards move as well. Also, how to avoid the finger movement when the bottom card is taken away?

The top card will come as you refine the preasure between the index and thumb.

Madison changes the motion here, it isn't nonexistent. The classic motion he is trying to avoid is for the fingers to flail. He spreads his fingers in an attempt to mask the motion.

In order to take the bottom card , my ring and pinkie have to move or it will get in the way of bottom card to be taken.... I was hoping for some tips, or for someone to say its part of the learning curve.

Madison avoids this by flattening out his hand, I believe. His grip over all is very flat.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
As for which move is better - don't worry about other people's opinion. Use the technique that works best for YOU. You'll probably end up tweaking anything you use anyway, as everyone's hands and rhythm is going to be a little different. I'm a big fan of learning as much as I can about any given technique, and then melting all that information together and hammering out my own technique from that.

I agree with this. You need to find what YOU like. Dani DaOrtiz says that the technique is made for the magician, not the magician for the technique. So do what is best for you!

Apart from that,what do you think about DM bottom deal style? Is it good compare with erdnase bottom deal , Gene Maze bottom deal or mechanic bottom deal(strike or push off)? I am wondering whether if it is good to learn DM bottom deal style since some people said it is a bad technique...

Keeping Christopher's comment in mind I'll give you my two cents on what I like and don't like about the deal and why I perform the deal that I do. This isn't the gospel truth of course.

I don't love Madison's grip or deal. He does go through a lot to avoid the knuckle flash, this is a common problem with many deals. So, that's a good thing. He does tend to have a large rock with his deal. Most deals have this to some extent but his is pretty substantial.

I think it is worth learning the Erdnase grip. There is a lot of work on it in the literature. The double deal in Expert Card Technique relies on it. When you are looking for a grip it is helpful if it is dynamic. This is another thing that Daniel Madison stresses that is something I liked about his approach.

Joey144 loves the Gene Maze grip. It is a favorite by many card technicians. If Joey chimes in on this thread he always has good things to say about false deals.

I perform a hybrid of a few. I started with a funky interpretation of the Erdnase grip. I was told by a few respected magicians that it looked funny. I then began to work with the Dr. Elliot grip. I have now settled with a grip that combines the two. It feels and looks natural to me and avoids the things that I dislike in a bottom deal.
 
Apr 9, 2016
95
56
The previous replies are all solid advice and explanation.

I can add to some of it a bit. I will assume you're learning it from "Mechanic". DMs bottom deal is IMO brilliant technique and I have heavily adapted his technique and advice to my own.

First, don't get discouraged. I don't know how long you've been working on your BD, but it does take a LOT of time and practice to put it all together, so be patient and now that you know the technique, continue to work these trouble spots, you will overcome.

Second, take a moment, go back and watch the entire section on fair dealing on through the bottom deal. Just listen and watch, no deck, no interruptions. There is a great deal of tidbit info on the hows and whys regarding the subtleties that can be overlooked the first few times through. Most importantly, Daniel speaks about adjusting your grip to fit your hand and making it your own. SO IMPORTANT! Use his techniques, but the grip is not set in stone and you, like me, will find that you may need to adjust a bit to make it all work correctly, never forgetting the techniques as he teaches them. Essentially keeping your middle finger on/at that corner of the deck is crucial. It, along with your index finger provide the shade for your ring finger to do the slide with no flash. Concentrate on keeping your deck hand index and mid finger immobile while moving your ring finger like Daniel shows, almost like the "Spock" hand from the old Star Trek TV show. That's not the exact motion, but it's close.

Specifically on your questions, I have a feeling your top card issue may, as another suggested, be related to the pressure you're using (too much?). It also may be where you are placing the thumb on the top card itself to push it off. Again, review where DM places his thumb for the push off and keep working at it.

An often overlooked issue: Try using a different deck, or a broken in deck, or a new deck, or just a different brand. Sometimes that can assist with learning the fine points. On that point, as you learn and practice, I STRONGLY recommend you do exactly that, use various decks in various degrees of usage. It not only helps you to learn, but gets you ready to be able to pick up any deck and perform undetected in any game.

Lastly, you are correct, these are all issues to be expected when learning a bottom deal so don't get frustrated and don't give up or look elsewhere. It sounds like you have put some time in and are on your way. Don't give up, keep at it, and feel free to adjust the grip to fit your hand within reason.

Whatever grip you settle on, as DM says, make sure your fair deal grip matches all your false deal grips.

DM has a brilliant approach to deck mechanics and there aren't many, if any, wasted words in his dealing instructions particularly. Everything he says is important and useful. People have preferences and again as another indicated, it's all about what's best for you.

That said, anything worth learning is worth putting in as much time and effort as you can throw at it. I assure you that if you keep at it, you will get it, and you will look back and remember the days you struggled with a proud grin on your face as you deal undetected bottoms, seconds, and even Greeks.

Good luck to you and keep up the work. It's worth it and DM has both the techniques and philosophy that bring home the money.
 
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