Religion & Magic

[Tyler Johnson]

First of all. THIS IS NOT A THREAD WERE YOU ARE TO SUBMIT YOUR OPINION OF RELIGION. This is merely cleaning up the former thread entitled "Faith" that was closed because of it's ridiculous discussion.

Once again I'm going to state, THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT RELIGION. This is a discussion about magic, and if you BELIEVE in RELIGION then post here. IF YOU DON'T then don't post here. If you believe, how do your beliefs affect your magic?

I don't want to see any "There is no God" or quotes from people that don't know anything about religion. If I see it, I will have a mod close the thread immediately.

Anyway, I am a Christian and as so, of course it affects my magic. Why? Because God is in my life everyday! But, it doesn't really affect the tricks I perform. Because, they're just what they're called, they're tricks. Not demonic summoning, or devil worshiping or anything of the sort. And I let people know that. It's a trick, it's all an illusion. There are some people, usually called legalists, that roam the background of the Christian faith. These people scorn magicians, saying we lie, we cheat, we summon demons. Truthfully, I could careless what they think! I know it's a trick. It's for entertainment, not lying, it's for entertainment, not cheating, it's an illusion, not summoning demons.

That's my opinion. If you don't like it, then fine. I don't really care what you like or don't like about my opinion. Just post your opinion kindly. Anyway, once again, NO COMMENTS ON RELIGION! This is more of a discussion about MAGIC and how your MAGIC is affected. Peace!

Tyler

 

[lachomagician]

To answer your question, they do not. My beliefs are separate from my performances. My aim is to entertain. This goes along with an old thread that asked about "having powers or it is just a trick." I claim neither. I ask simply for people to see what I do and believe what they will. If they enjoy it, then I did my job. It is somewhat like being a writer, you can tell a story, and let the audiences imagination run wild. But with illusions we blur the line, and it is up to our audience to decide if what they see is real or not. If such decision is entertaining and brings them happiness, then the rest does not matter.

Juan M.

 

[Dex]

Does religion affect my magic? No.
Does my magic affect religion? Yes, kind of.
I always like to add some small phrases saying things like "Now here, some people would call this a miracle, but ..." "Before we get spiritual about this I'd like to..." "This is better than what that other guy did!" Never any direct references to religion, but small implicite phrases like these (that can affect any new age, alternative medecine, spiritual stuff...)

Intelligent people will then think about it, and question these things, I won't change anyones faith, which is not my objective, but if I can at least get people to think about religion (A topic I am greatly pationned about) then I believe I have done something good, and my performance was more than just entertainement.

 

[Delta]

To start this off I'll say I don't believe in a God. Now you might be thinking what does this have to do with magic? the answer is everything. I do magic to show people that the impossible is possible. Rules they've always held to be true and the impossible both take on new forms as magic redefines impossible and truth. Where others may turn to God, I look to myself for miracles. For me faith is not placed in a supreme being, but in wit and slight of hand to do the impossible.

This is how my religion affects my tricks. I have no religion, thus the world is a very tame place. I do tricks in hopes of people suspending their beliefs in what can and what cannot be. I have never claimed to have special powers, nor will I ever. But I feel that magic is a way for even the unbelieving to, if temporarily, show a little faith.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

I usually don't post on threads like this but I'll remark with this thought. I perform for church people and present my magic with respect and as a sleight of hand artists and for the most part people laugh and enjoy being entertained even in church. I have never had anyone scorn me for doing magic. It's a degree of respect and choose your effects wisely for we don't want to offend any of our spectators. Thats it for me.

 

[MitchellStafiej]

Being in a family of many religions, I try to keep my magic neutral. My family often gets into arguments over politics and religion, so I don't dare start one. I try to keep it neutral and as entertaining as possible!

Mitchell

 

[Calavitta]

To start this off I'll say I don't believe in a God. Now you might be thinking what does this have to do with magic? the answer is everything. I do magic to show people that the impossible is possible. Rules they've always held to be true and the impossible both take on new forms as magic redefines impossible and truth. Where others may turn to God, I look to myself for miracles. For me faith is not placed in a supreme being, but in wit and slight of hand to do the impossible.

This is how my religion affects my tricks. I have no religion, thus the world is a very tame place. I do tricks in hopes of people suspending their beliefs in what can and what cannot be. I have never claimed to have special powers, nor will I ever. But I feel that magic is a way for even the unbelieving to, if temporarily, show a little faith.

Good post, but I have a few comments. (please in no way take this as an argument, )
As a magician we know that we don't REALLY do the impossible. Making something REALLY float... that would be impossible, attaching a thin piece of thread that the audience can't see... completely possible. We give the illusion, but in reality we know the line between possible and impossible. We as magicians don't redefine truth. It may appear that we are, but we know we aren't. We present tricks. We don't REALLY perform miracles. We perform tricks. I would say that there is a big difference between these things: actually redefining truth or faking that we are redefining truth. (truth is truth, it can't be redefined other wise it was never true... side note). I guess what I'm saying is, as magicians, we know that those things that are REALLY impossible, are just that... impossible, at least in our normal human hands. This is where, in my faith, I can see Christ stepping in to do the impossible... but it's all Him, not me.

Oh, I really like your last line..."But I feel that magic is a way for even the unbelieving to, if temporarily, show a little faith"

All in all, I don't present my magic as Truth, or altering the truth, or as miracles. Instead I just present it as a "I've been practicing, and I'm doing something that you just can't see" kind of thing.

Anyways just some thoughts, thanks for the post!

 

[CDarklock]

If you believe, how do your beliefs affect your magic?

I don't portray my magic as potentially being a supernatural power. Such power belongs to God and only to God; it is inappropriate for me to mislead people about my illusions and gimmicks and sleight of hand.

If people object to my act on religious grounds - e.g. that magic is of the devil and I am going to burn in hell - I simply apologise for the interruption and leave. This has only happened twice.

If people ask about my faith or beliefs, e.g. when they want me to perform at their church, I simply tell them I'm Jewish. Hardly anyone pursues it further.

I do not inject my faith or beliefs into my routines. I think it's disrespectful to the art when you muddle it up with religion. You keep one over here, and one over there, and everyone's happy. I liken it to the golden calf incident - it's all well and good to have a golden statue, but when you stack it on an altar and start praying to it, that's a whole different matter.

 

[Ben Long]

I'm a Jew and for me, Judaism is more of an attitude with a set of customs than a religion. This attitude affects everything I do, but it really has an impact on the presentation of my magic.

I never claim what I do to be magic or an act of god. In fact, before every performance I make a point that everything I do is, on some level, an illusion. I hate it when others try to preach their BS to me, so I would never stoop to trying to preach my BS to anyone else.

All I want to do is show people something. Let them draw their own conclusions.

 

[PabloAmira]

i´m christian too, and i perform in my church.
i ALWAYS said Richard Osterlind´s Line ... " i dont claim to have special power, only the abilityes to all have, but i used in a different manner"...
like tommy wonder thinking of a magician, its a person too.

 

[tokyoUW]

Others have said it already, but I would like to put it in my own words. I too am a Christian, but in my eyes, there is no relation between the two. There is no basis for saying they are two conflicting things.

Magic in my opinion is extreme dexterity combined with the ability to act and speak in public. Those three things together in combination with theory between the human psychy allows us to portray something magical. And, in my opinion, anyone who truly loves God and has an open relationship with Him based on faith, should be able to see us Christians for who we really are, and not see us hypocrites who are demeaning God's name and or miracles. I believe that those Christians who look down on us are playing the judgemental role that solely belongs to God.

If you are given a hard time for being a magician, and things like, "if you were a Real Christian, you wouldn't be doing magic," then respond like this : Ask them, "what do you think of the theater?" and "what do you think of darts players, or guitar players?" Then respond, "actors in the theater learn the art of acting, they learn the subtlies of how to control a crowd and how to present themselves in front of a large amount of people." Then explain, "a darts player or guitar player practices to build up dextertity to a certain degree of expertees, and they use that to do what they love." "A magician is nothing more than a darts player combined with an actor. We use our dexterity in the form of slight of hand, combined with our acting and presenting ability, to entertain, and if you think I am claiming to perform miracles, as God did, then we should sit down to have a longer talk."

I personally have never had to have this kind of talk defending myself, but I know that I would have to if I went back to my old church. But, seeing as how I live in Japan now =/ not too many Japanese Christians running around accusign me of witchcraft.

 

[guiguimanu]

To start off I am Fascinated by religion. Christianism, Bhuddism, Muslims, Rastafarism, wikan, satanism .etc. Having said that, i do not beleive in any, but i study each and everyone of them, the way humans seem to need religion to live fascinates me, even those who dont have some sort of beleif, religion is a very vast topic and a very interesting one.

Going back onto the subject, Religion to me has ALOT to do with magic, When you do an effect which people think is impossible they will instantly link it to the supernatural, many people have different opinions and beleifs,therefore different reactions to magic, some will instantly link your effects to tricks, but if the peformance suggests it, they might link it to something else. for example heres a scenario which is probable:

an old fashioned christian walks by, i peform stigmata on him, the old man starts freaking out and start splashing holy water on me and screaming " the devil! its the devil! The power of christ compells you!", maybe even wave his cross around my face and hope my eyes will burn out. This scenario is probable, why? Because this man has beleived his whole life in christianity and nothing else. We should adapt our peformance style depending on the person were peforming for and depending on the reaction you want to get.

Even those who are "spiritual". Actually especially people who are "spiritual" are good subjects to do magic on, because they beleive in the supernatural, doing an effect that links to their religion will be all the more effective, such as future prediction or talking to the dead. Obviously you can peform for someone who happens to be an athiest skeptic , but the reactions wont be the same, this person could be impressed but know its a trick.

Some people may find it wrong that i put it this way, i make it sound like iam making them beleive something thats not real and playing with their beleifs. But i beleive that we should all have the right to beleive in what we want, the thing i find wrong is when people impose their beleifs on someone, by linking magic to peoples beleifs iam enforcing their beleifs, either that or just giving them a little entertainment.

 

[S3al]

To start off I am Fascinated by religion. Christianism, Bhuddism, Muslims, Rastafarism, wikan, satanism .etc. Having said that, i do not beleive in any, but i study each and everyone of them, the way humans seem to need religion to live fascinates me, even those who dont have some sort of beleif, religion is a very vast topic and a very interesting one.

an old fashioned christian walks by, i peform stigmata on him, the old man starts freaking out and start splashing holy water on me and screaming " the devil! its the devil! The power of christ compells you!", maybe even wave his cross around my face and hope my eyes will burn out. This scenario is probable, why? Because this man has beleived his whole life in christianity and nothing else. We should adapt our peformance style depending on the person were peforming for and depending on the reaction you want to get.

Hahah, I would do some more studying. Christians don't use holy water, thats catholics. Just clearing that up.

 

[Deleted member 2755]

I'm Jewish, but I have different beliefs. I'm not gonna bother posting it as it doesn't contribute to the thread. (If you really care send me a pm =P)

Anyway I don't see magic and religion having to do anything with each other. Magic is just an illusion that looks cool. Religion is a faith that there is a God and there are different beliefs about God.

For people that say we are summoning devils... this is what I say.

Punch them, tell them to get a life, and tell them you never summoned Satan a day in your life and couldn't even if you wanted to.

-Doug

 

[velvetxdreamer]

Well I am still looking for a religion, so it doesnt affect my performance at all, however i never EVER claim to have supernatural powers...I always make sure people no that it is illusion....but I feel my magic has a bigger impact on my religion...I use my magic as an outlet...as an expression of myself...I incorporate my beliefs and ethics into a performance and my tricks....and I dont mean i preach...but my words dont speak...my magic speaks for me...my expressions speak for me....but mostly the spectators speak fr me....I dont claim to have real powers....and I know that...but I know that I have the power to changen the way one thinks....their perspective on the pyhsical laws of this universe....magic is an art....magic is my art....and as a painter expresses himself through every stroke of paint on the canvas....i express myself by every sleight of hand I perform and every effect that fills a person with that feeling of mystery and thoughts of the unimaginable.....theres alot more id like to say but i know i shouldnt fill up this forum with my thoughts as others need to speak theirs.....so yeah basically thats one millionth of what id like to say lol

 

[Double Decker]

I am of christian faith. I believe it is very difficult to mix magic with god unless you do multiple types of tricks and you want to something like what jeff mcbride does with acting. Using magic to tell stories. Honesly though it would only be a side job for me anyways. It's not a life passion. So I use magic to entertain generally.

 

[Delta]

Hahah, I would do some more studying. Christians don't use holy water, thats catholics. Just clearing that up.

Uh.... last i checked, Catholics were Christian mate.

 

[ThrallMind]

Uh.... last i checked, Catholics were Christian mate.

Heh.

There is one effect I do. The spectator picks a card, then shoves it into the deck wherever they want, halfway jutting out. The deck is spread. The card above the selection, the card below the selection, and the selection itself are removed. Turns out they are three sixes. Something I like to do when an anyone comes and starts arguing about why their religion is better than mine. Usually gets a fun reaction. Don't remember the name of the effect, but it was by Ed Solomon. He has all sorts of otherworldly, spiritual magic.

-ThrallMind

 

[S3al]

Uh.... last i checked, Catholics were Christian mate.

No, no there not. Catholics believe that the only way to be saved is to be baptized into the catholic church, and they rely on works to get them to heaven.

We Christians, we believe that God died for out sins and we are saved through grace, and all we need to do is ask him to come into our life and accept his gift. We do not have to do works, because it is a gift.

Very big difference, there are other things, but I will leave it at that.

 

[Delta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

Read the first line please.

Then the first line of the second paragraph.