Resources on overhand shuffle stacking

[gavinj]

Hi

I'm looking for best overhand shuffle stacking techniques. Beside the one in Expert at the Card Table, what are some good ones? Good meaning the practicality of it in a real game. And where can I learn them? I'm new here am I even posing this question in the right place?

 

[Maaz Hasan]

In a real game? I am not going to encourage swindling peoples money, or cheating in a legit gambling game. If its a casual game with no money an you are playing something like Captilism or BS, I think it is ok as long as you on't ruin the game for others.

For magic, the Royal Road to Card Magic has 2 separate sections on the Overhand shuffle, mainly with false shuffles and controls. If you are looking for books with gambling moves How to Cheat at Cards by Daniel Madison is a pretty good one.

 

[mrt818]

I don't believe there are any "best" techniques, what's wrong With the Erdnase one?

 

[Maaz Hasan]

I don't believe there are any "best" techniques, what's wrong With the Erdnase one?

Yeah, Erdnase definitely has a lot of info. That being said, it isn't the "best" one out there. A lot of the latter stuff is somethings people would never use.

 

[Ned Devine]

Not saying I have ever stacked a deck before... But it is ruined once they cut the deck, if we are talking about gambling games of course.

I prefer a hold out or possibly an index if you are ballsy enough to do so.

P.S. Don't cheat at cards! That is how a good friend of mine ended up with 4 broken ribs and a knee replacement. Don't cheat at cards!

 

[mrt818]

Yeah, Erdnase definitely has a lot of info. That being said, it isn't the "best" one out there. A lot of the latter stuff is somethings people would never use.

What "latter stuff" are you referring to?

 

[DavidL11229]

I don't believe any overhand method is practical in a real game. I don't think many players would accept the dealer using an overhand shuffle. I've never seen someone use one even in a home game, it's generally just not done in poker. If you are playing poker with people inexperienced or oblivious enough to allow overhand shuffles, it's probably just as east to learn basic poker strategy and get the money the regular way.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

What "latter stuff" are you referring to?

The expert at the card table is a book that has good information. However, unless you are willing to sit down and reaaaaaally study it, and have some prior experience, it is not a good book for anyone. As is stated in the foreword by Martin Gardner, there are things that are taught wrong in it, and things no one would ever do. It is definitely more of a cheating book than a magic book. It is only good if you are willing to take it all in and figure out how to actually apply the stuff he teaches.

Erdnase has a tendency to go overboard with a lot of the stuff, at least as far as magic is concerned. A lot of the block shuffle variations, and a few of the methods used are not the best one's out there.

That being said, it is definitely a great resource for a more advanced student of magic, specifically one focusing on gambling techniques, but even then, there are other resources better than it.

 

[mrt818]

The expert at the card table is a book that has good information. However, unless you are willing to sit down and reaaaaaally study it, and have some prior experience, it is not a good book for anyone. As is stated in the foreword by Martin Gardner, there are things that are taught wrong in it, and things no one would ever do. It is definitely more of a cheating book than a magic book. It is only good if you are willing to take it all in and figure out how to actually apply the stuff he teaches.

Erdnase has a tendency to go overboard with a lot of the stuff, at least as far as magic is concerned. A lot of the block shuffle variations, and a few of the methods used are not the best one's out there.

That being said, it is definitely a great resource for a more advanced student of magic, specifically one focusing on gambling techniques, but even then, there are other resources better than it.

Well, first of all; would you like to tell me what exactly is being "taught wrong" in Erdnase?

But more on the point:

Here we are specifically talking about overhand stacking, which Erdnase explains two great methods for.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Well, first of all; would you like to tell me what exactly is being "taught wrong" in Erdnase?

But more on the point:

Here we are specifically talking about overhand stacking, which Erdnase explains two great methods for.

Yeah and that's fine. I'm just saying there are other books out there that will focus on the same thing.

And if you read Martin Gardner's Foreword for The Expert of the Card Table, he says it right there, and a lot of magicians will agree with that. Erdnase himself states that it isn't the most accurate description on some of the sleights in the intro (he states this and proceeds to tell you that the book was made to make quick money).

Now if you have one of the annotated copies of Erdnase where the book is looked over by a another magician, that is definitely a book chocked full of knowledge. But unless you are a master of the craft, or are reeeeeeally studying the book, the original Expert at The Card Table is only good for so much.

 

[mrt818]

I don't believe any overhand method is practical in a real game. I don't think many players would accept the dealer using an overhand shuffle. I've never seen someone use one even in a home game, it's generally just not done in poker. If you are playing poker with people inexperienced or oblivious enough to allow overhand shuffles, it's probably just as east to learn basic poker strategy and get the money the regular way.

Never the less it is sometimes done, I,ve seen people use overhand shuffles in a serious poker game, cut card and everything.

 

[mrt818]

Yeah and that's fine. I'm just saying there are other books out there that will focus on the same thing.

And if you read Martin Gardner's Foreword for The Expert of the Card Table, he says it right there, and a lot of magicians will agree with that. Erdnase himself states that it isn't the most accurate description on some of the sleights in the intro (he states this and proceeds to tell you that the book was made to make quick money).

Now if you have one of the annotated copies of Erdnase where the book is looked over by a another magician, that is definitely a book chocked full of knowledge. But unless you are a master of the craft, or are reeeeeeally studying the book, the original Expert at The Card Table is only good for so much.

I agree that Erdnase (like any book on this subject) is only good for so much. As for Gardner's remarks; are you referring to the "slip cut"?

 

[Maaz Hasan]

I agree that Erdnase (like any book on this subject) is only good for so much. As for Gardner's remarks; are you referring to the "slip cut"?

Slip cut, and then I believe there was an extended manuscript written by him, or someone else in an annotated version talking about many different moves that could be made better, but I can't remember where I read that. It might be in the fore word, maybe somewhere else.

 

[mrt818]

Slip cut, and then I believe there was an extended manuscript written by him, or someone else in an annotated version talking about many different moves that could be made better, but I can't remember where I read that. It might be in the fore word, maybe somewhere else.

It is generally accepted by the authorities on the subject that Gardner was wrong on the subject of the Erdnase "slip cut". The cut is not taught wrong, Gardner merely confused it with the more modern slip cut. The move from Erdnase is a very good one.

As for the moves being taught better, that would hold true for any book, if studied enough.

 

[gavinj]

Thank you for the feedback. I'm just an enthusiast of gambling moves and don't intend to cheat. Is there any other source besides Royal Road to Card Magic? And by saying it's "for magic" are you implying that it wouldn't work in actual game?

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Thank you for the feedback. I'm just an enthusiast of gambling moves and don't intend to cheat. Is there any other source besides Royal Road to Card Magic? And by saying it's "for magic" are you implying that it wouldn't work in actual game?

Some moves are specifically designed for magic and wont be able to used in a game too often, such as a in the hands false shuffle w/ a bridge, since a lot of players wont like you using a in the hands riffle shuffle over a tabled one (I Don't think it'll be too much of a problem though). Granted, there are tabled shuffles that accomplish the same thing, and are easier to do, so that specifically wouldn't be too much of a problem.

If you are interested in gambling moves, check out How To Cheat at Cards by Daniel Madison.

Actually I just checked, DM has stopped selling HTCAC as a Standalone book and is now Selling it in his "Delivery" book, which includes every book he has ever written. This is probably perfect for you since it focuses mostly on Gambling moves.
http://danielmadison.co.uk/DEVILRY.html

Other things you might find interesting are the Works of Jason England, and since you are a Gambling Enthusiast, check out
Phantoms of the Card Table: Confessions of a Card Sharp. It talks about the card cheat lifestyle of many card sharps, and focuses on Walter Irving Scott. It is a bit different from your average magic book, as it teaches you a lot about how the card cheat does his thing, before going into some moves (I believe).

 

[Jason England]

Maaz,

Something that few have ever bothered to point out about Gardner's foreword is that he wasn't (and still isn't) considered a card expert by any means. Yes he did magic all his life and dabbled in sleight-of-hand for years, but I don't consider him an expert at sleight-of-hand card magic or gambling techniques by any means.

So why listen to his opinion on the moves in a predominately sleight-based magic and gambling book? Martin was a general magic expert, an expert in lay mathematics and a great writer. I was fortunate to meet him at his home in Norman, Oklahoma a few years before he passed away. But I don't pay much attention to his criticisms of the text of the book.

The bottom deal is fine as described in the text.
The slip-cut is also fine. It requires a particular cutting style to make work, but that's okay - many moves require adapting to a particular handling when doing the "real" move in order to set up the fake move.
The second deal isn't criticized per se; Gardner only mentions that an easier version was omitted.
The various shifts in the book are described as "bizarre" (whether this is criticism or not is debatable). But so what? S.W. Erdnase himself admitted that many of his shifts were outgrowths of experimental techniques. He described his efforts as "ever failing." It's difficult to justify criticizing something that even the inventor feels is unfinished.

The book isn't perfect by any means, but Gardner's criticism can be refuted by people with a lot more credibility with a deck of cards than he had.

Jason

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Maaz,

Something that few have ever bothered to point out about Gardner's foreword is that he wasn't (and still isn't) considered a card expert by any means. Yes he did magic all his life and dabbled in sleight-of-hand for years, but I don't consider him an expert at sleight-of-hand card magic or gambling techniques by any means.

So why listen to his opinion on the moves in a predominately sleight-based magic and gambling book? Martin was a general magic expert, an expert in lay mathematics and a great writer. I was fortunate to meet him at his home in Norman, Oklahoma a few years before he passed away. But I don't pay much attention to his criticisms of the text of the book.

The bottom deal is fine as described in the text.
The slip-cut is also fine. It requires a particular cutting style to make work, but that's okay - many moves require adapting to a particular handling when doing the "real" move in order to set up the fake move.
The second deal isn't criticized per se; Gardner only mentions that an easier version was omitted.
The various shifts in the book are described as "bizarre" (whether this is criticism or not is debatable). But so what? S.W. Erdnase himself admitted that many of his shifts were outgrowths of experimental techniques. He described his efforts as "ever failing." It's difficult to justify criticizing something that even the inventor feels is unfinished.

The book isn't perfect by any means, but Gardner's criticism can be refuted by people with a lot more credibility with a deck of cards than he had.

Jason

Yes, now that I think about it, that is very true.

Personally, I only study Expert At the Card Table because it intrigues me. However, I do not perform any gambling routines, and my false deals are from another grip, so the Erdnase one's seem weird to me. There are somethings in that book I just don't understand why someone would do it, but I have to remind myself that the book is on cheating, not primarily magic. That's why the slip cut stands out as so odd, and why a lot of moves seem unnecessary to me.

I guess I should maybe read it with a different mind set - one that isn't trying to figure out how I should apply this to my style of magic.

Thanks!

 

[Jason England]

Careful thinking that this is a book on cheating, or was intended primarily as a book on cheating. It wasn't. Erdnase intended it to be exactly what it is: a treatise on sleight-of-hand manipulations with playing cards, regardless of "venue." He tells us as much in the subtitle: A Treatise on the Science and Art of Manipulating Cards. He then proceeds to lay out a book with almost a 50/50 split.

There are 205 pages in the book. 103 are dedicated to "Card Table Artifice" (13 - 116) and 80 are devoted to "Legerdemain" or magic (125-205). Three card Monte occupies a sort of strange third category. Although it's officially included in the Legerdemain section, the entire write-up describes the game as more of an amusement than a con. Additionally, the Mexican Turnover is included in that section, which is much more a move of entertainers than cheaters. So I don't include 3-card Monte in either section really.

That gives a 103:80 ratio of gambling to magic. A pretty even split if you ask me, especially since some of the stuff in the Legerdemain section is rather fanciful and unlikely to have ever been used at a card table by serious hustlers. Take that stuff out and you have an even closer split. Remove the repetitive stuff (the stock shuffles and cull sections are largely the same concepts just with varying degrees of length) and the split gets even closer.

The book was intended to be about both subjects and it is.

Jason

 

[Gabriel Z.]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Expert Card Technique by Hugard and Braue , they have a somewhat more facile method of getting the cards to there respective places during the course of an overhand shuffle. I went over their method of stacking the deck a couple of times and they require you to place the cards in different locations, however I still use the stacking methods described in The Expert at the Card Table by S.W. Erdnase. I generally associate them as run ups of: 2 hands,5 hands and 3 hands,4 hands. If you think about it the stacking methods for doing 2 and 5 cards are very similar and 3 and 4 also have their similarities due to the fact you have to run 1 card after doing the whole run number of players minus 1 and shuffle off. The 12 card stock or Fancy Stack I remember a different way as you have to first start with the three sets of fours and run 1 minus three times the number of players towards the end. And of course there is the Euchre Stock.

Anyway,
Here is a video I did about a little over a year ago on the Erdnase System of Stock Shuffling. It might help , then again it might not.