Selective Respect

[Shodan]

When it comes to respect, there are people who've certainly got it as far as the members of this site go. Lee Asher, the Bucks, Chris Kenner...etc.

This is great!

However, this is counterbalanced by a shocking lack of respect for a great many other names in magic; Jay Sankey to name but one example.

Stop and think for a moment; compare your own achievements and experiences to those who you so casually dismiss.

Criss Angel is a household name, as is David Blaine. These guys have achieved exactly what many members here can only dream of. Who's to say how you would handle having to put together a new, bigger, better show on a weekly basis? Working professionals deserve your respect, household names or not, because they have got together the balls and the hard work to make a success out of their magic.

My point is this. If a magician is so successful that you've heard of them, that their name is well recognised by the magical community - or indeed the general public - then its a 100% guarantee that you can learn something from them. The implication here is obvious; if you want to become a better magician, a more successful magician, then study the work of other successful magicians. The more baseless preconceptions you put in the way of that, the more you limit your own potential to progress.

My performing style is nothing like Bill Malone's - or David Stone's - or John Guastaferro's. The vast majority of Tommy Wonder's material doesn't fit my criteria as far as the tricks themselves go. However, I have learned a lot about what kind of performer I want to be by studying the work of these highly successful magicians; the proof is in the performance and I know my audiences can tell the difference. Did I look at Malone's stuff and say "nah, not my style!"? Of course not. I thought "his audience is REALLY enjoying themselves - how's he doing that?" and set out to find out.

Credit where credit's due, that's all I'm sayin'

 

[Glenn West]

Respect should not be directly related to accomplishments.

Someone can accomplish a hell of a lot, but if they lied cheated and stole their way to the top, shoudl we respect them?

Not that I am saying that is what the people in question did, I am simply saying that respect is not based on just what you accomplish, but also HOW you accomplished it.

 

[Tyler Johnson]

It's the difference between jealousy and respect.

I am jealous of Chris Kenner, the Bucks, and Lee Asher. Why? They are great magicians and cardists and are well known. I respect Chris Kenner, the Bucks, and Lee Asher, because of how they have risen in magic. They have risen by their talent, dedication, and awesome performances. I respect them because they are down to earth guys, guys you know you could hang out with. Wouldn't even talk magic and still have an awesome time. That's why I respect them.

Sure, I'm jealous of Jay Sankey, even Criss Angel and David Blaine. I wish I was a household name, I wish people were jealous of what I would have if I were a household name. But do I respect them? No. Truthfully, I find Jay Sankey to be extremely annoying, as do other people. Some people think he's funny, others don't. I don't respect him cause I really don't like him personality wise. I don't respect Criss Angel because of the way his show is run. He rarely does magic, he mostly does camera tricks and stooges. Although I must say I do respect David Blaine, I don't respect him immensely, but I do respect him.

That's the difference between jealousy and respect when it comes to magicians liking magicians. Peace!

Tyler

 

[mattlee]

When it comes to respect, there are people who've certainly got it as far as the members of this site go. Lee Asher, the Bucks, Chris Kenner...etc.

This is great!

However, this is counterbalanced by a shocking lack of respect for a great many other names in magic; Jay Sankey to name but one example.

Stop and think for a moment; compare your own achievements and experiences to those who you so casually dismiss.

Criss Angel is a household name, as is David Blaine. These guys have achieved exactly what many members here can only dream of. Who's to say how you would handle having to put together a new, bigger, better show on a weekly basis? Working professionals deserve your respect, household names or not, because they have got together the balls and the hard work to make a success out of their magic.

My point is this. If a magician is so successful that you've heard of them, that their name is well recognised by the magical community - or indeed the general public - then its a 100% guarantee that you can learn something from them. The implication here is obvious; if you want to become a better magician, a more successful magician, then study the work of other successful magicians. The more baseless preconceptions you put in the way of that, the more you limit your own potential to progress.

My performing style is nothing like Bill Malone's - or David Stone's - or John Guastaferro's. The vast majority of Tommy Wonder's material doesn't fit my criteria as far as the tricks themselves go. However, I have learned a lot about what kind of performer I want to be by studying the work of these highly successful magicians; the proof is in the performance and I know my audiences can tell the difference. Did I look at Malone's stuff and say "nah, not my style!"? Of course not. I thought "his audience is REALLY enjoying themselves - how's he doing that?" and set out to find out.

Credit where credit's due, that's all I'm sayin'

Props to you dude. Your attitude is extremely rare here. (I think we both can see that from the above posts)

 

[Glenn West]

Props to you dude. Your attitude is extremely rare here. (I think we both can see that from the above posts)

I think the two posts above show the truly justified feelings about such people.

There are those who are jealous and that alone is why they don't respect them, something that, with many of todays younger crown, started with Blaine. They all saw a guy doing tricks they knew, but he was making it big, and not them.

Mind you, Blaine I respect.

 

[JackOSpadesNik]

I agree with the person that started this thread. Sankey is an honest magician that tries to make a living. He doesn't rely on complext hype for people to buy into his tricks. He just puts it out there and I respect him for that. It doesn't matter if he's annoying. He made a name for himself from his creativity.

I dislike Criss Angel, but will always keep a small piece of respect for him inside me. His attitude and ego puts me off, but 3 seasons of magic is a hard thing to pull off. I have a hard time deciding what to perform next. I have no idea how I would make 3 seasons worth of magic.

A lot of people here only show respect to the T11 artists and have a biased opinion. Think about this. If Sankey was a T11 artist would you respect him more?

The T11 artists are great magicians and very creative, but there are many more magicians out there that deserve the same amount of respect.

 

[caruso]

wise words

 

[Shodan]

Respect should not be directly related to accomplishments.

Someone can accomplish a hell of a lot, but if they lied cheated and stole their way to the top, shoudl we respect them?

Not that I am saying that is what the people in question did, I am simply saying that respect is not based on just what you accomplish, but also HOW you accomplished it.

Granted. However, how much do you know about how anyone gets to where they're going? I'm willing to bet that in most cases it is difficult to know anything about "HOW" someone achieves great things.

I'm also willing to bet that in most cases the answer as to how someone gets to the top goes something like this:

Blood, sweat, talent, perseverance and some good luck along the way.

Given the choice between assuming someone is a lying cheating son of a gun and a decent, hard working person, I will assume the best until proven otherwise.

Best,
David.

 

[caruso]

Granted. However, how much do you know about how anyone gets to where they're going? I'm willing to bet that in most cases it is difficult to know anything about "HOW" someone achieves great things.

I'm also willing to bet that in most cases the answer as to how someone gets to the top goes something like this:

Blood, sweat, talent, perseverance and some good luck along the way.

Given the choice between assuming someone is a lying cheating son of a gun and a decent, hard working person, I will assume the best until proven otherwise.

Best,
David.

Yes it is true....
although hard to differentiate

 

[..:Z:..]

I agree with the person that started this thread. Sankey is an honest magician that tries to make a living. He doesn't rely on complext hype for people to buy into his tricks. He just puts it out there and I respect him for that. It doesn't matter if he's annoying. He made a name for himself from his creativity.

You see, that's just it; Jay Sankey, (the people's at) T11, Ellusionst, albeit it seems like they "create"" a lot of hype but in reality, YOU guys are creating the hype! Just because some magic companies like to use the "street" - magic them for their products doesn't they're automatically hype. I mean, have you seen that 108+ thread about the centurions? It was YOU (general you, not YOU specifically) people who have posted in there.

But that's a completely different topic....

A lot of people here only show respect to the T11 artists and have a biased opinion. Think about this. If Sankey was a T11 artist would you respect him more?

Actually, if HE joined, I'm leaving and heading for the hills!!!

I am actually really surprised at how biased and how prejeducal people how in THESE magic forums; I can't tell you how many times someone recommends a beginner "CrashCourse1" or CC2 or Ellusionist this, and E that and shell out dozens of dollors and pay 9$ shipping for these cool dekcs and BLAHBLAHBLAH. You can tell these people are fan boys!

Also, it get's kind of annoying with all these big ego's floating around everywhere on each magic forum. It's stupid. I'm trying to figure out why people here talk AT each other instead of WITH each other and why can't we focus on WHAT the speaker is saying and NOT how well the speaker says it.

Some people here aren't really open to other's perspectives. I'm okay with that but when people try to be all fregin' nasty, arrogant, and argue non-stop WHILE trying to defend THEIR perspective (which I'm sure they're just plain wrong)... It's just stupid!

Why we can't have civilized conversations and debates is completely beyond me.

Good discussion guys.

..:Z:..'s comments in Teal (or is it Cyan?)

 

[Phenomena]

Personally i find Jay Sankey an amazing magician...
he sets himself apart from evereyone by being different, using comedy instead of..well the "typical" low key boring magician

he has invented an infinity number of tricks with stuff he finds on the floor that the average magician wouldnt even think of (i mean changing the date on a bread clip...cmon)

with lines such as "you know after performing for many people, they think im psychotic...i mean psychic"

Whats not to respect from this guy?
annoying? or stands out?

I think many of you lack a sense of humour

ebay.com/senseofhumour

 

[Davejusttyped]

Two cents- no waiting.

First: Definitely cyan. lol

Secondly: Sankey's got some shaky practices as does Angel- flooding the market with "ehh" magic and selling to laypeople respectively. This will lead to a lack of respect in the eyes of people either not well rounded enough to know of the 'games' played between magicians, corporations, capital gains and laypeople or those people who feel they know/ are magicians who "Would never do such a thing."

Let's work backwards and address the "I would never!" people:
As stated before, when you get a contract with a magic distributer and/or you're on A&E for a soon to be 4 seasons, I'll pm you and ask what it's like...

In regards to Jay and Criss' lack of respect from the magic populous, personally- as this seems to be the way the thread is answered- I think Sankey's put out a lot, lot, lot, of magic. Good? Kinda, I mean in all of his products, I did find and purchase performance rights to 'Paperclipped'- a nice Mercury fold based effect. Bad? Maybe- some argue that the 'flood' has cluttered up the industry's market with quantity over quality.

As for Angel, I don't approve of his selling of magic to laypeople but again, it's a numbers game- end of the day how much money am I making and how can I make more. If you've never thought of how you could make more money or get a raise at your job, you're... different than most.

Atleast in either of the two aforementioned senerios, there is a price tag on the tricks. Having to pay to learn something rather than just getting it put in front of you will make for less laypeople to have this information privy to them. (i.e. "I don't wear a gold watch because they're expensive. I would be more likely to darn a gold watch if you gave me one" White gold please...)

Before changing the persona's or shticks of magicians as a whole, what I think we should be concerned about is revelations. Go to Youtube or Metacafe and type in the name of any recently released magic trick and you'll find a reveal on it. There are even flourishes stolen straight from System that have webcam tutorials.

The public's interest in magic and how it works has increased drastically over the past 15 years. Realistically, there will be spoilers, people selling information to laypeople and intellectual infringements in any market- it just stinks that it's in our market as the edifice upon which magic was created is secrecy. I've been told that the only possible save to an increasing public knowledge of magic secrecy is to make the cost of an effect prohibitive. As you could guess, those of us who are going to college, paying rent and or working part time would be out of luck when we realize we're not in a position to buy a $45, 5 pack pack of loops. One may even predict a rise in spoilers/ trick sharing if we raise prices- you buy that one, i'll buy this one and we'll get two for one.

Brainstorming a way to bring back the esoteric nature of the coterie of magic practitioners will be the only way to solve such a dilemma and thus far, T11 (for only being in existence since what? Septemberish?), is in a position with brilliant magicians toting strong magic to bring it back.

Always,
Dave

 

[Brad Henderson]

Criss Angel is a household name, as is David Blaine. These guys have achieved exactly what many members here can only dream of.

Charles Manson is a household name. So was Hitler.

I do not think either of the magicians listed above are psychopathic killers, but being a household name is not a measure of the respect one deserves. Fame and infamy often lead to the same points.

My point is this. If a magician is so successful that you've heard of them, that their name is well recognised by the magical community - or indeed the general public - then its a 100% guarantee that you can learn something from them.

Should someone who makes his living as a full time performer have something we can learn? What about someone who pretends they are a full time performer but really just sells tricks they invented to sell? What about someone who pretends they are a full time performer, and sells tricks they saw others do, but with their own name attached?

We all know names that belong to each of these three categories. And if greed and larceny are skills, I'm sure we can learn from each. But simply because we know their name, does that REALLY mean they have something POSITIVE to teach us?

We have allowed people to have "names" when all they do is cleverly repackage and market. Ironically, some of the most succesful performers in the world would go unrecognized by many if they set next to you in a theater.

We have created a world where fame is false, and our heroes often have more than just feet of clay.

Something to think about,

Brad Henderson

 

[Shodan]

Brad,

Interesting contribution there. I can't help but feel that you missed the general thrust of my point though!

Many members here have expressed an ambition to become professional or well known magicians. And yet there is also a tendancy to dismiss successful magicians out of hand - odd, considering that these people are the embodiment of this ambition. I agree wholeheartedly that we live in an age of "false fame" across the board - but I'm struggling to think of examples from the world of magic. Repackaging and remarketting is a dubious claim to fame, which happens a lot in magic, so I take that point. However, these are not the people who usually come under fire from the T11 population.

Maybe you don't like someone's style. Maybe you don't think much of some of the tricks they create and market. Does that mean that they should be disrespected? Does that mean that you have nothing to learn from seeing what makes them successful - whether it be performing chops, creativity or even marketting and self image? Let's face it, none of these big name magicians got to where they are by being bad or evil people. If you've heard of them, there's gotta be a reason why you've heard of them - and if you like the idea of being "heard of" one day, then its a logical step to figure out how they did it.

There's a story that David Blaine got famous by a lucky chance - a random trick for the right person at the right time started a chain reaction. This tells us several things:

Luck is a huge factor in success;
David clearly was able to perform well enough to impress a layperson;
This requires hard work beforehand;
He was ready to perform and took the opportunity in front of him

Leaving luck aside, those all point to qualities I can respect in a person. I might not be the biggest fan of his style, but that says more about me than it does about him.

Mass murdering psychos is off topic to say the least!

 

[MikeGoyke]

Sure, I'm jealous of Jay Sankey, even Criss Angel and David Blaine. I wish I was a household name, I wish people were jealous of what I would have if I were a household name. But do I respect them? No. Truthfully, I find Jay Sankey to be extremely annoying, as do other people. Some people think he's funny, others don't. I don't respect him cause I really don't like him personality wise. I don't respect Criss Angel because of the way his show is run. He rarely does magic, he mostly does camera tricks and stooges. Although I must say I do respect David Blaine, I don't respect him immensely, but I do respect him.

That's the difference between jealousy and respect when it comes to magicians liking magicians. Peace!

Tyler

I couldent agree more with you. Thats a pretty great post.

 

[Wreq]

I think Sankey's great, i respect him because he isn't arrogant. I don't think he's funny but his work is amazing.

 

[..:Z:..]

he has invented an infinity number of tricks with stuff he finds on the floor that the average magician wouldnt even think of (i mean changing the date on a bread clip...cmon)

Quality, NOT Quantity.

..:Z:..

 

[Brad Henderson]

Brad,

Let's face it, none of these big name magicians got to where they are by being bad or evil people. ...

Apparently we share different sources when it comes to our information about people.

Repackaging and remarketting is a dubious claim to fame, which happens a lot in magic, so I take that point. However, these are not the people who usually come under fire from the T11 population.

And that's the sad thing. If we "like them" or we think they're"cool" or - to use your phrase -- because they've made a name -- they get a free pass. It can't work both ways. Just because someone is a name, should not make them immune from criticism.

Mass murdering psychos is off topic to say the least!

Nope. It established that being a "house hold name" does not qualify a person as good, talented, or worthy of emulation. Sangia - so was Milli Vanilli - was a household name.

Finally, Fred Cook (a name no one where will know - for many reasons) was once watching a lecture. It was by all definitions - awful. But he was watching with rapt attention.

When asked about it, he said, "You can learn something from everyone - even if it's what NOT to do."

Teller said, "Hate breeds more good art than love." And he is right.

There is nothing wrong with being critical and learning from others - their good and their bad.

But should we respect them simply because we can learn from their arrogance, stupidity, or mastery of lifting material?

I don't think so.

Brad HEnderson

 

[Tyler Johnson]

I couldent agree more with you. Thats a pretty great post.

Well, I'm glad you agreed with me! It seems other people completely disregarded my post though. Seeing as no one addressed it.

I still don't think some people in this thread are getting the point. So, once again, I'm turning to my dictionary to prove a point. (lol)

Respect-
2. the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard"
3. an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"

(Note: I only show 2. & 3. because they are the only meanings that have relevance.)

Respect comes when you admire someone or hold esteem for them. The point most people in this thread aren't getting, is that abilities, skills, and accomplishments, don't get a hold of respect. Let's use a Barry Bonds story here!

Barry Bonds, he hit tons of home runs and he holds the record for the most home runs in a single season. But, he took steroids and growth enhancers to help him hit those home runs. Does anyone respect Barry Bonds? Heck no! But would people like to have all the money, fame, and recognition. Well, they wouldn't want to have the negative recognition, but the recognition he holds as someone well known, people want.

Respect comes when you like a person, when you enjoy that person, and when you become a "fan" as someone said in a previous post. Like I said before, I'm jealous of all the money, fame, and recognition, Criss Angel is getting. But do I respect him? No way. I don't like him, I don't enjoy him, and I'm most definitely not a fan. On the other hand, there's the Bucks, my favorite cardists. They're funny, down to earth, and people I can relate to and enjoy watching. I am jealous of their fame within the magic community, but I also respect them for them.

But, I think I've made my point so I'm going to stop there. Peace!

Tyler

P.S. I read in someones post before mine, well, it was something along the lines of, "we should respect Criss Angel because I can't even put a magic routine together but he has put together 3 whole seasons of television shows". Whoever that person was, notice how you said, "magic routine", and not "camera tricks and stooges". The possibilities with camera tricks and stooges is practically endless. "I want to walk through a wall. That will be easy, I'll just pull out my editing equipment and make it look like I'm walking through a wall." It's not magic, it's video editing. Peace!

 

[Shodan]

Who would have thought that the simple notion of having respect for each other could spark such a lot of debate?

Tyler, I think your dictionary definition is a little bit away from the everyday useage of the word "respect". I have respect for absolutely everybody until they demonstrate that they don't deserve it. If there's room for doubt, I lean towards giving them the benefit. Admiration, honour, esteem...these are not really words I think about when I think about this basic level of respect. So perhaps we have a communication problem; I certainly don't hold "big name magicians" to the level of respect that you're talking about - I don't admire Jay Sankey because of the volume of tricks he has put out (which does include some absolute gems!). I do respect him as a creative, entertaining magician though (and even if I don't find him entertaining, there are clearly audiences who do, which is the point).

The attitude that "respect must be earned" is a good one, yet everyone is due a basic level of respect which means we don't be rude about them or their work, we don't make baseless assumptions - especially not in writing in public (there's a nasty word for that...)!

Perhaps a better word for what I'm trying to express is "common courtesy" towards a fellow human being. In addition, the more open minded you can be, the more you can learn - and maybe one day you will be well known enough for people who have no idea who you really are to be rude about you on a public discussion forum! Of course, you won't care - after all, what do they know?