Are Our Intellectual Properties Going To Survive?

Jan 22, 2008
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WARNING: This is long, and probably boring for most of you, it's just some thoughts on the state of Intellectual properties in America today as it pertains to Magic, Music, and any other art form.

I'm a child of the 80's and grew up trying to catch David Copperfield everytime he came through Detroit at the Fox Theater. I fell in love with magic for the same reasons I feel in love with Pink Floyd or a great movie plot, it was all about the intrigue and mystery.

I have never been a professional magician and never will be . However, my love for the art has always endured and I usualy carry a few things with me or in the car just in case the moment came up.

However, this editorial is not about my very few impressive illusion skills. I recently have been checking out the Theory 11 forums on a regular basis and I noticed an issue occuring in the magic industry that I deal with every day in my career.

I am the Director of A&R for a music publishing company based out of Nashville and NYC. My job is to find songwriters and to help develop their careers and manage there creative lives. I sign them to a "publishing deal" which means I pay them a salary and in return my company partially owns anything written during the contractual term. I then take those songs and try to get major recording artists to record them. For instance, I have had our copyrights recorded by acts like The Plain White T's to Rascal Flatts.

My industry is in such a state of turmoil right now. We are nearly ten years away now from the first mention of Napster. My industry was slow to adopt the concept that the internet would be a viable distrubution method. Just like any large corporation sector of this country, the music business has been doing their work in the same way since the dawn of popular music. We (music industry) fought Napster like Hollywood fought the VCR. We lost valuable educational time during this period trying to stop an inevitable and massive change.

I hold no personal resentment towards the millions of young people that download copyrights (including mine) illegally and instead feel like it is a clear exmaple that the education of the issue failed. Many of you that post on this site on a regular basis are in high school. I hear your stories about performing tricks during the school day and the excitement acheived when an effect works. I also read about the frustration you go through when those fellow classmates go home and watch Youtube to learn the effects for free.

This is the very same concept I go through in my industry. People don't see why they should have to pay for a full album (whether it be on iTunes or from Walmart) since the artists are wealthy enough as it is. The problem is they just don't know who all gets paid from the purchase of a single song or album. Every time you purchase an album from iTunes or a retail store, their are often hundreds of people making a living from your purchase. A typical cd usually contains ten songs, often times there are usually two songwriters per song and each of those songwriters also have a publishing company that has taken a financial risk on them. Believe me, the majority of those people are not extremely wealthy. I have songwriters ranging from age 19 to 65 writing for me and their success levels range from multiple #1 singles and grammy nominations, to never having had any success at all. I know of only one songwriter in the 20 year history of the company that never has to work again. The rest are people like me and you, just trying to make a living.

I am not completely sure of how the royalty stremas work in the magic industry. However, since often time there are DVD's and effects that credit the new routine back to an earlier working, I can imagine there may be similar structures to how the business works. I'm sure Wayne, or any of the artists here ,could chime in and provide a much more accurate look at how this works. I think it's fair to assume though that there are several people making a living every time one of us purchases a DVD. Someone made the music, edited the film, worked the camera, designed the original effect, reworked the effect, packaged and then mailed it to you.

Somehow we need to figure out how to teach the younger generations the value of art once again. The age of the inetrnet is so amazing for so many reasons. However, the future of intellectual copyrights rests almost soley on the moral values we hold or pass along to the youth. We can never fight every battle of illegal copyright exposures. There's just to many and the internet is just too expansive. The other major issue is that many of the businesses that help provide a platform for this exposure don't see things from our perspective (youtube,limewire). They feel they are doing nothing wrong and shouldn't be blamed for what users are doing on their web space. The bottom line is, they benefit from the intellectual property of others or artistic expression of others. Some of this is legal, and some of it is not and they chose to look the other way whether it be clips of a movie, music videos, or magic.

So just remember, next time someone downloads music illegally, they are doing the same crime we complain about every week in these forums about the magical effects we love and value. The best thing we could do for the artistic communities is to value what they create. You can't change people's views, and although you can try to educate them, it's often difficult to pass long values to our stubborn peers. What we can do is show the world that the younger generations do value art today.

You don't have to understand a single word I said about the music industry, or understand how the business behind the magic industry works. Just continue to show support for the arts by purchasing copyrights legally and then respecting that copyright by not passing it along for free.
Many of you save up for months to buy one effect. I applaud you for that. Please continue to do so and your actions will speak greatly for the future of artistic expression.

Theory 11: Thanks for the amazing site, the forum to allow us to vent, and for helping to keep us itrigued and mystified.

-J
 

Brewery Rabbit

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
931
6
34
Poulsbo, Wa
Wow.
That was really great.

I can relate.. Sort of....
I work at hallmark now..
And you think when you buy a card.. all the money goes to hallmark.
But you have the card writers, The paper companys, Cartoonists.. and so on.

Good read.

~Jordan
 
A very good and necessary post. Enjoyed reading it. Thanks.

I know people have done that with some of my eBooks. I make my living performing as a Mentalist/Paranormalist and also as a Voice-Over talent for the Discovery Channel and others. All my eBook and Black School paypal money goes right back into the community in the purchase of magic related magazines and other people's DVDs, eBooks, books and tricks. I know a few people who do the same with the income from their "products". It helps support the community, and keeps creative minds producing new, interesting and innovative material.

Again, a needed post.
 
I thoroughly enjoyed reading that... :)

And completely agree. There are a ton of people behind the scenes that need that extra few dollars to get by. Not everyone is as well off as Toby Keith or Garth Brooks (yes...I love country music).

Stolen magic is the same thing as stolen music. It might save you a few dollars, but costs many more people a lot of money. To bad others can't have this same experience/views, to let them see the effects that stealing copyrighted material has on the lesser knowns.

Good Luck!
Steve

P.S. Rascal Flatts rocks!! Which songs have you helped with?? My current favorite is Take Me There! :p
 
Jan 22, 2008
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thanks!

I appreciate the replies, thanks for taking the time.

Steve, check your PM regarding the music question.
 
Sep 9, 2007
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I'm probably among the wrong people here, but I'm going to say it anyways.

The modern concept of "intellectual property" is terribly outdated and dying fast.

It has been used by large corporations to disproportionally sue people into oblivion. It is no longer like it once was, where artists were respected for what they did, and the compensation was NEGOTIATED between the artist and buyer.

Mass production has changed the rules, and perverted the concept. That's why in magic, it's not nearly as bad as it is in Music, Movies, etc. As a community becomes bigger, the relationships between creator and buyer become more distanct and that MUTUAL RESPECT is lost. The creator provides the buyer with enjoyment, and the buyer compensates him in and agreed upon manner. That's the basis for a fair transaction.

We need to stop making "intellectual property" a commodity. People should profit from their works, and customers should be satisfied with the value they obtain. Nowadays, IP laws are about feeding money to lawyers and the industry coalitions they work for.

That being said, T11 has probably the best prices around for what they offer, and adds value through things like this forum, AMAZING and responsive customer support, and by putting us in touch with the creators as much as they can. That's why I'll buy T11 stuff. Even with the whole DD fiasco, they handled it in a truthful, responsible, professional and mutually beneficial manner. I have a great respect for everyone at T11 and I put my word behind their brand.

Feel free to quote that guys.
 
Jan 22, 2008
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great points

"...the relationships between creator and buyer become more distant and that MUTUAL RESPECT is lost."

So true, but also ironic in a time where technology allows us closer interaction with the sources than ever before. I wish Radiohead would release accurate sales figures of their new record so we could take a glimpse of what value the fans placed on their art.

So one last question for everyone: Are the issues of piracy today due to the technologies of the time? In other words, if we had the same capabilities 25 years ago, would people have illegaly downloaded "Thriller" and "ET."? Or has our society just lost the value once placed on artistic works?

Great response phrozunsun.

Sorry to digress directly of the topic of magic everyone.

-j
 
Oct 17, 2007
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SG
I wish Radiohead would release accurate sales figures of their new record so we could take a glimpse of what value the fans placed on their art.
-j

If I'm not wrong its about $5 per album.

Are the issues of piracy today due to the technologies of the time? In other words, if we had the same capabilities 25 years ago, would people have illegaly downloaded "Thriller" and "ET."? -j

Yes. I know for a fact there were bootleg copies of tapes/etc during that time.

--

I am a web designer and online marketing consultant in my day job. At night I turn into a magician. I am also a professional musician. So this topic is very close to my heart. Listen very carefully, I shall only say this once:)

The problems facing the magic industry and the music industry are entirely different.

1. 'Over-consumption' will not devalue music.

I'm not talking about the quality of the music - simply put, music does not suffer if more people listen to it. On the other hand, magic does suffer for over-consumption. Even if no exposure takes place (fat chance), when too many magicians know the secret, the trick is de-valued.

2. The supply of music today is infinite.

What I mean is that an *.mp3 file can take up less than 3mb of space, and can be duplicated AND distributed in a matter of seconds.

Magic is not like that. Magic must be practiced. Even making all those lousy sh** videos on youtube requires SOME effort. Its more comparable to a lousy cover of a song - which in the case of music does not diminish the original one bit. Whereas for magic, exposure on youtube can directly hurt the effect.

I'll get of my soapbox now, but the last thing I want to say is that spotting the problems is easy. Anyone with half a brain (me included) can spew out criticism - constructive or otherwise. However I believe that finding the solution is more important, and to me, the solution is for all of us to practice until our technique is perfect.

Then go out there, amaze some people and bring magic back into magic.
 
Jan 22, 2008
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thanks for the reply

I don't necessarily think that we were talking about over consumption, but simply how it's being consumed. Theory 11 wouldn't complain about an abundance of legally purchased dvd's just like I wouldn't complain about a million legally purchased albums.
 
Sep 9, 2007
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Are the issues of piracy today due to the technologies of the time? In other words, if we had the same capabilities 25 years ago, would people have illegaly downloaded "Thriller" and "ET."? Or has our society just lost the value once placed on artistic works?

It doesn't relate to technology at all. Technology makes it easier, but not more desirable to do.

I think it was best said in a comment I heard on "Silicon Spin" back when G4 was still ZDTV (yeah, even before TechTV, I'm talking "Kate and Leo" days)

I don't have the exact quote, but I'll paraphrase:

You can't compete with free when it comes to pricing, all you can do is add more value to the legit product. Pirating music becomes a question of "is it worth it to have a physical disc and sleeve for the 15 dollar difference in price?". Clearly, that's not enough. You have to include extras that only a valid product would have: contests, bonuses, exclusive access and things that can't be pirated. You have to provide VALUE above and beyond what is free.

And i totally agree with that. The idea of selling "licenses" is ridiculous for intangible items (Content/Intellectual Property). You shouldn't need a license to hear a song, but you certainly need one to operate a moving vehicle. There is a certain skill acquired in doing one, but not the other and a reasonable level of training is necessary. You do not put the public in jeopardy by playing "This is why I'm hot" (at least, not within reason), but you COULD run someone over with a car.

A license for an intangible product is simply not justification enough for someone to pay rather than steal. Providing added value is.

The easiest and cheapest way to add value is to connect with your customers. No one steals from people they care about. This goes back to my "distance correlating to respect" post you quoted. It's easier stealing from some faceless corporation, especially when the artist receives something like a dollar per album after the money is filtered through the record companies (and the lawyers they use to sue fans).

And again, this is what T11 does right: they provide value and connect with their customers.

I doubt the magic community will ever have that big of a problem, due to the fact that, a) there's just not enough of people seriously interested in magic to co-ordinate widespread piracy and b) there's way more respect for content creators since most magicians are relatively accessible. you never know who you see at your local shop...
 
Jan 27, 2008
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Wow guys! I'm really like the posts here. Very interesting.

I would like to chime in now...

It doesn't relate to technology at all. Technology makes it easier, but not more desirable to do.

Theoretically, I guess your correct, but think about it. Hypothetically, If you could download a whole album for free with the click of your mouse, instead of stealing a physical copy, wouldn't you? No one would catch you so why not? Seems very tempting doesn't it especially for the guy that doesn't have a lot of money and who's integrity is none.

Sure, technology makes it easy but it is CERTAINLY more tempting. Believe me, all of those pirates at LimeWire would NEVER have the balls to go out and steal physical music products, but LimeWire is there at the click of a button. It certainly seems more logical to steal that way instead of the hard way PLUS it's TEMPTATING is the sense that you could very well get away with it.

The easiest and cheapest way to add value is to connect with your customers. No one steals from people they care about. This goes back to my "distance correlating to respect" post you quoted. It's easier stealing from some faceless corporation, especially when the artist receives something like a dollar per album after the money is filtered through the record companies (and the lawyers they use to sue fans).

EXACTLY!!!

It's so easy on your concious to steal from a face-less, large-scale, bussiness corporation. But when you meet someone like W:H is person, how could you possible steal from him now? Your gonna feel extremely guilty!

Not a good feeling!!!

I doubt the magic community will ever have that big of a problem, due to the fact that, a) there's just not enough of people seriously interested in magic to co-ordinate widespread piracy and b) there's way more respect for content creators since most magicians are relatively accessible. you never know who you see at your local shop...

Agreed. However, there are new Televisions shows that are comming out (Celebracadabra) and with more and more increases in technology, it's gonna be easier to access the secrets of these effects as, the gatekeepers are gone now.

Good discussion, guys! Keep it up. Very interesting.

..:Z:..
 
Jan 22, 2008
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good points

Thanks for replying, it's cool to read people's thoughts on the subject.

"The idea of selling "licenses" is ridiculous for intangible items (Content/Intellectual Property). You shouldn't need a license to hear a song..."

So isn't a magical secret or technique an intangible item by those view points? Someone created an effect and created a dvd explaining how that effect works. It's the physical representation of an idea. Do you think it's ridiculous to sell the dvd's?

Secondly, you don't need a license to hear a song. You can do it every day in many legal ways for free (radio/streaming/etc.). There is a big difference between "listening" to a song and stealing it to do with as you wish.

What makes these items intangible? Certain people choose to make their living in creative ventures. Some through services and creative expertise, and others through providing techniques or sources of entertainment.

Just because it's easy and noone is in "jeopardy" from the actions does not make it right.

I think your points are an example of what we are talking about. It's clear that members of society feel that it is not a crime and is in fact ridiculous to pay for these works.

Thanks for the replies everyone and thanks for keeping the debate civil !!!

Again, really interesting ideas!
 
Jan 27, 2008
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Thanks for replying, it's cool to read people's thoughts on the subject.

Very cool.

"The idea of selling "licenses" is ridiculous for intangible items (Content/Intellectual Property). You shouldn't need a license to hear a song..."

So isn't a magical secret or technique an intangible item by those view points? Someone created an effect and created a dvd explaining how that effect works. It's the physical representation of an idea. Do you think it's ridiculous to sell the dvd's?

Magic and Music. Apples and Oranges. Your comparing Apples and Oranges as, I do not think he meant that.

We do not need a license to listen to a song. What we need is to pay the creator the gratuity for concieving the music for us to listen to.

Regardless, the creator deserves to be paid.

Secondly, you don't need a license to hear a song. You can do it every day in many legal ways for free (radio/streaming/etc.). There is a big difference between "listening" to a song and stealing it to do with as you wish.

I believe the stealing happens when you intentionally download the creator's (or conciever's) song WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION or without paying the already-agreed-upon price.

Just because it's easy and noone is in "jeopardy" from the actions does not make it right.

Agreed.

I think your points are an example of what we are talking about. It's clear that members of society feel that it is not a crime and is in fact ridiculous to pay for these works.

These people obviously do not value anyone's hard work unless if it's there own.

Thanks for the replies everyone and thanks for keeping the debate civil !!!

Again, really interesting ideas!

Keep the discussion alive, people! Very interesting!

..:Z:..
 
Sep 9, 2007
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Thanks for replying, it's cool to read people's thoughts on the subject.

"The idea of selling "licenses" is ridiculous for intangible items (Content/Intellectual Property). You shouldn't need a license to hear a song..."

So isn't a magical secret or technique an intangible item by those view points? Someone created an effect and created a dvd explaining how that effect works. It's the physical representation of an idea. Do you think it's ridiculous to sell the dvd's?

Secondly, you don't need a license to hear a song. You can do it every day in many legal ways for free (radio/streaming/etc.). There is a big difference between "listening" to a song and stealing it to do with as you wish.

What makes these items intangible? Certain people choose to make their living in creative ventures. Some through services and creative expertise, and others through providing techniques or sources of entertainment.

Just because it's easy and noone is in "jeopardy" from the actions does not make it right.

I think your points are an example of what we are talking about. It's clear that members of society feel that it is not a crime and is in fact ridiculous to pay for these works.

Thanks for the replies everyone and thanks for keeping the debate civil !!!

Again, really interesting ideas!

you being in A&R, I totally get where you're coming from, but you took a couple of things out of context that admittedly, I oversimplified.

as for you point on licensing, someone IS always paying a licensing fee, even on the radio. The station pays royalties and recoups the cost through advertising. It may moneyless to us, but not exactly free.

stealing music, and stealing magic are totally different. music does one thing: allows you to listen. Instuctional magic videos, on the other hand, teach you a skill that has a certain tangibilty to it. It's not about just the idea, it's more about what the idea provides you with afterwards. in that sense, it provides more value.

there are different levels of wrongness, and the "wrongness" of theft should correlate to the value stolen. that's why different crimes, such as assault and murder are punished with other levels of severity. stealing is wrong either way, no doubt, but complaining and suing doesn't make the problem go away. Providing more value does.

clearly the big labels are not willing to do this. they're content on selling us the same product multiple times in multiple formats (vinyl -> cassette -> cd -> digital, or vhs -> dvd -> bluray -> digital), without providing value that we don't already have.

People, fundamentally, are value driven beings. It's how we choose our friends, partners, jobs, products, everything around us - tjey all provide some type of value that is generally irreplicable. You have to appeal to that, or live with the consequences (extinction).
 
Jan 22, 2008
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...

Thanks for posting again...

you being in A&R, I totally get where you're coming from, but you took a couple of things out of context that admittedly, I oversimplified.

as for you point on licensing, someone IS always paying a licensing fee, even on the radio. The station pays royalties and recoups the cost through advertising. It may moneyless to us, but not exactly free.

Absolutely, radio pays the Performance Rights Orgs. Your original post sounded as though you were trying to justify the illegal download based on the fact that people shouldn't have to pay to listen. Thanks for clarifying.

stealing music, and stealing magic are totally different. music does one thing: allows you to listen. Instuctional magic videos, on the other hand, teach you a skill that has a certain tangibilty to it. It's not about just the idea, it's more about what the idea provides you with afterwards. in that sense, it provides more value.


This paragraph gets into your personal view of what a certain art form means in your life. A book, movie, or work of music may not affect your life after the intial interaction, but for many others it does. We are all able to place our own priorites on what we feel is important to enrich our lives, but it doesn't give us the right to deem which artforms are more/less valuable for others.




there are different levels of wrongness, and the "wrongness" of theft should correlate to the value stolen. that's why different crimes, such as assault and murder are punished with other levels of severity. stealing is wrong either way, no doubt, but complaining and suing doesn't make the problem go away. Providing
more value does.

Complaining and sueing is what landed my industry in the state it is in now. I think if you look again at my initial post you will see that I could not agree with you more on this. The model is broken. My point and big picture question was, is the value that the art form once had completely lost? Stealing is still stealing. We all know exactly where to obtain both a legal and illegal version of a song.

clearly the big labels are not willing to do this. they're content on selling us the same product multiple times in multiple formats (vinyl -> cassette -> cd -> digital, or vhs -> dvd -> bluray -> digital), without providing value that we don't already have.

They are stubborn just like any big business, no arguments there. I don't work for them. I work for the creative entities providing their artists with material. What I make from a record sale is regulated by a set rate and only occurs when an album or song is purchased. If everyone was simply ripping their cd collection into mp3 formats we wouldn't have an issue. This problem is happening with new material that you did not have before on any format. That is a value that you did not already have.

People, fundamentally, are value driven beings. It's how we choose our friends, partners, jobs, products, everything around us - tjey all provide some type of value that is generally irreplicable. You have to appeal to that, or live with the consequences (extinction).

Who are your favorite bands? Do they not provide you with a value every time a new single is released? Are we to a point where the song or album itself is no longer value enough to be compensated for? Again, back to my intial question.

Again, I agree with you on so many levels . You continue to respond cordially and respectfully so thank you for that!
 
Jan 6, 2008
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www.darklock.com
The problem is they just don't know who all gets paid from the purchase of a single song or album.

This is true. The general consensus of opinion seems to be that the artist should get paid, but more and more often we find this not to be the case.

People buy music to support the artists. When it doesn't work, they stop doing it. When the labels produce endless streams of worthless crap, packaging eight garbage songs on a CD with one good song and two that almost don't suck, and then proceed to charge $18 for it... when they promised in the days of $12 CDs that this was only because manufacturing was so expensive... well, we tend to think you guys are a bunch of money-grubbing jackholes.

The backlash is not against the artists, it's against the industry. Steve Albini has written a famous essay on how labels work, and too many people have read enough of it to get the gist.

The real problem isn't music downloads, it's that you can't do business this way anymore. Microsoft learned that the hard way, in court, but they learned. And now it's your turn. The movie industry is probably next.

The magic industry has never worked this way, so there's nothing for us to change. Magic, unlike many other artistic pursuits, has always rested firmly in the hands of the people who perform it. Whenever the corporate world has sucked a bunch of money from magic while the performer walked away with a much smaller check, the performer knew it going in - and was usually still happy with it on the way out. After all, the usual weapons of the corporate lawyer... misdirection and overcomplication... are our very stock in trade.
 
Jan 22, 2008
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classy

People buy music to support the artists. When it doesn't work, they stop doing it. When the labels produce endless streams of worthless crap, packaging eight garbage songs on a CD with one good song and two that almost don't suck, and then proceed to charge $18 for it... when they promised in the days of $12 CDs that this was only because manufacturing was so expensive... well, we tend to think you guys are a bunch of money-grubbing jackholes.

When what doesn't work? Don't buy the whole record if you feel like it's not a value. Buy the one good song. None of these arguments justify stealing a product. If I buy "trilogy" and think that half the effects or flourishes are "worthless crap", it doesn't give me the right to post the dvd up for anyone to download for free. If your revenge against the "money grubbing jackholes" is to steal from the artists and songwriters, then I believe you answered the original question posted.

The real problem isn't music downloads, it's that you can't do business this way anymore. Microsoft learned that the hard way, in court, but they learned. And now it's your turn. The movie industry is probably next.

It's my turn because you have decided you are no longer paying for music? I'm failing to understand why you feel so pursecuted as a consumer that you need to backlash by stealing and devaluing the art. No one is arguing the fact that the music industry is in trouble, but don't tell me it's my turn to suffer because you've decided to stop paying for things you want. What do you do for a living?

The magic industry has never worked this way, so there's nothing for us to change. Magic, unlike many other artistic pursuits, has always rested firmly in the hands of the people who perform it. Whenever the corporate world has sucked a bunch of money from magic while the performer walked away with a much smaller check, the performer knew it going in - and was usually still happy with it on the way out. After all, the usual weapons of the corporate lawyer... misdirection and overcomplication... are our very stock in trade.

Well, I wish someone would chime in here from the site and give some insight cause I can not speak as a professional in the magic industry. However, don't you think it's ironic how often we see concerns of magic exposure on this forum if magic is truly immune as you say? Devalueing of copyrights hurts every art form. You may choose to steal other industries art but your missing the big picture. We are talking about the creators of the art. READ THE ORIGINAL POST. We are talking about the songwriters and the magic creators, not protecting the labels and Penguin Magic.

Everyone else has debated the subject maturely and respectfully, I appreciate those of you that have done so.
 
Oct 17, 2007
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SG
It's my turn because you have decided you are no longer paying for music?

Yes.

I'm failing to understand why you feel so persecuted as a consumer that you need to backlash by stealing and devaluing the art. No one is arguing the fact that the music industry is in trouble, but don't tell me it's my turn to suffer because you've decided to stop paying for things you want. What do you do for a living?

If you start the game by suing the consumer, don't be surprised that they treat you like the enemy.
 
Sep 9, 2007
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stealing music, and stealing magic are totally different. music does one thing: allows you to listen. Instuctional magic videos, on the other hand, teach you a skill that has a certain tangibilty to it. It's not about just the idea, it's more about what the idea provides you with afterwards. in that sense, it provides more value.


This paragraph gets into your personal view of what a certain art form means in your life. A book, movie, or work of music may not affect your life after the intial interaction, but for many others it does. We are all able to place our own priorites on what we feel is important to enrich our lives, but it doesn't give us the right to deem which artforms are more/less valuable for others.

value is indeed subjective, but the overall value is basically an average of the values of the buyers, NOt what the Labels put on the price sticker. Magic buyers value magic more than music buys value music. There are various reasons that I've already mentioned. as a result, they can command a higher price and expect less piracy.

there are different levels of wrongness, and the "wrongness" of theft should correlate to the value stolen. that's why different crimes, such as assault and murder are punished with other levels of severity. stealing is wrong either way, no doubt, but complaining and suing doesn't make the problem go away. Providing
more value does.

Complaining and sueing is what landed my industry in the state it is in now. I think if you look again at my initial post you will see that I could not agree with you more on this. The model is broken. My point and big picture question was, is the value that the art form once had completely lost? Stealing is still stealing. We all know exactly where to obtain both a legal and illegal version of a song.

I wouldn't say the value is lost, but i would say it has significantly decreased. just music is not enough. not to mention, the quality of music has also decreased.

clearly the big labels are not willing to do this. they're content on selling us the same product multiple times in multiple formats (vinyl -> cassette -> cd -> digital, or vhs -> dvd -> bluray -> digital), without providing value that we don't already have.

They are stubborn just like any big business, no arguments there. I don't work for them. I work for the creative entities providing their artists with material. What I make from a record sale is regulated by a set rate and only occurs when an album or song is purchased. If everyone was simply ripping their cd collection into mp3 formats we wouldn't have an issue. This problem is happening with new material that you did not have before on any format. That is a value that you did not already have.

perhaps you need to look into new legislation the RIAA and labels are trying to force. and the DMCA which they have already forced into law. It makes transcoding illegal, even for personal use.

People, fundamentally, are value driven beings. It's how we choose our friends, partners, jobs, products, everything around us - tjey all provide some type of value that is generally irreplicable. You have to appeal to that, or live with the consequences (extinction).

Who are your favorite bands? Do they not provide you with a value every time a new single is released? Are we to a point where the song or album itself is no longer value enough to be compensated for? Again, back to my intial question.

Again, I agree with you on so many levels . You continue to respond cordially and respectfully so thank you for that!

I won't divulge any of my favourite bands, mainly because I actually know them all, and I don't want someone to be able to cross reference them to me. But I will say some are on major labels, and some still independant, and they range from hip-hop to blues to rnb. I will also mention, the ones on labels are not terribly fond of the A&R guy that brought them in, because not all are completely honest, or if they were, they just neglected to mention a few details which would have definately reduced the likelyhood of them signing to the label.

That being said, I buy albums from the bands and artist I know and I often get to know bands and artists if I like them. I'd much rather buy direct from the artist, because there is a relationship and respect there. And I know that the creator is getting the money, not the labels, RIAA and lawyers.

Magic is the same way. If i buy an effect, usually I know or have at least talked to the creator. Or I participate on their forums. There's a line of communication open.

A fer more side notes: please don't use colors that make it hard to read. thanks.

The labels have made themselves the enemy. They have been resistant to change, reluctant to provide added value and have been screwing over artists for many years. To make it all worse, they've sued their customers and helped push ridiculous laws into effect. They really shouldn't be surprised that everyone is refusing to support them. They've also openly admitted to fasifying piracy figures, and have been busted numerous times for illegally using software that is licensed using GPL, by breaking licensing terms and conditions- A HUGE act of hypocrisy.

Oh yeah, and two words: Sony Rootkit.

Alot of people pirate nowadays, not out of cheapness, but out of principle. In the end, they know that the collapse (or at least reorganization) of the labels will ultimately be better for the artists even if it's hurting them right now. People are not going to stop playing music because they can't profit from it, and when the current system collapses, an newer more efficient one will cater to the artists and consumers in a way that the current labels never could.
 
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