Bringing people to Atheism through the art of magic.

[Shodan]

With time to reflect, I am not going to bother responding to those who either failed to understand the point of the original post or who are getting defensive about their religious views/offensive about my world view. I have spent years agonising about what I believe about the world, looking for truths and being open, and I don't feel the need to go round in the same tired old circles again.

All I will say about atheism "as a religion" is that the burden of proof falls to the person who asserts that something is there. Recognising the lack of evidence for something is not the same as taking it on faith that "something isn't there".

For those who feel that I am "attacking" or mocking - you should have found my writing on this topic to be clear, considered and thoughtful. As has been illustrated by examples given by myself and others, the use of magical illusion to illustrate the mundane explanations behind the so-called paranormal is documented and has been shown to be an interesting exercise.

Fails to prove it's point fully? I'll say. If there was definitive evidence for anything, there would be no debate.

It's funny that the concept of using magic to "lead people to Jesus Christ" is enthusiastically discussed, whereas the idea of using magic to open people's minds to take a look at what they take on faith is met with hostility. In both cases the aim is the same; to challenge people's perceptions. Yes, in some ways, this topic is a response to the Evangelistic one. Not a mockery, but a representation of another point of view.

To those that have attempted to discuss some of the questions raised in the original post, I thank you for your thoughts. RebelAce; Derren Brown thought the issue was important enough to write about at length and even to make a TV programme on; I guess he saw a connection between magic and religion!

As a closing thought, the notion that this topic could be percieved to be offensive to religious people should be as far-fetched as the idea that a topic on using magic as an evangelistic tool could be considered offensive to atheists.

 

[Shodan]

Just because I don't agree with him, and I know he's wrong, and I have no problem saying it. That does not mean I don't respect him.

Cheers for the respect dude. Unfortunately, I am unable to express the same sentiment back to you, in light of your certainty that you "know I'm wrong". That's just arrogant, short sighted and foolish no matter which way you slice it.

 

[The Royal JRA]

I agree with whoever posted the message about this is a magic chat it is not really appropriate to bring any religious stuff into it you should keep what you belive to yourself and quit trying to suck other people in you dont see amish people going around meantioning their gods and whatnot just leave it out of these forums if you want to talk religion go to a religion chat but dont meantion jesus mohammad budda or ne of that other stuff cuz its just going to start an unessacary war just like we are in now we just need to relize that not every1 is going to have the same belif as you i mean cmon what kind of world would this be if every1 bealived the same exact thing idividuality would not excist with that said i think we should talk about floruishes and card **** excuse my spelling but i dont give a **** have a great day and watch south park it might open your mind on some things

 

[Shodan]

Seriously?

 

[The Royal JRA]

seriously what?

 

[The Royal JRA]

btw shodan this is not directed toward you its deirected towrad every1 so dont take it persoanlly

 

[The Dark Angel]

Just because I don't agree with him, and I know he's wrong, and I have no problem saying it. That does not mean I don't respect him.

I know, and I didn't mean to imply you didn't, but I was simply reminding everyone to respect each other.
For the record, I didn't direct that post at anyone, just kind of a reminder.

 

[StreetMage]

He's got every right to say you're wrong if that's what he believes. Our 1st amendment rights protect free speach here in the US. You also have the right to call him arrogant and short-sighted. Don't you love America?

Honestly, political correctness is nothing but a damper on free speech. Tolerance has taken on a new and, in my opinion, inappropriate definition in today's vernacular. Tolerance now means you can't say anyone is wrong about much of anything when all it used to mean was "I'm going to put up (meaning coexist on some mildly harmonious level) with you and your bulls**t argument, even though I know it's bulls**t."

 

[brainchild]

As a committed atheist and empiricist, I often find myself frustrated by the contradictions in our world; we live in a supposed age of rationality and yet almost all major newspapers and magazines still print horoscopes - for example.

I also find it incredibly ironic that people are willing to believe all sorts of weird and wonderful things - just take a good long hard look at the "science" behind alternative healthcare - and yet they are unwilling to believe that "magic" is the result of paranormal abilities. Actually, scratch that - there were those who genuinely thought David Blaine had supernatural powers. My mother is a brilliant example; she loves my magic, is always amazed by what I can do, yet she knows that it's all just tricks. The kicker is that every couple of months she flies to a different country for psychic surgery.

I have never been interested in presenting myself as possessing otherworldly powers, but I do think that well presented magic could have a role to play beyond mere entertainment. The very fact that you are able to create these startling illusions WITHOUT "powers" is an excellent lesson; magic is nothing more than knowing one extra fact. OK, several extra facts. OK, and a crapload of practise. But you get the point.

Through the ages, people have risen to positions of power and influence through the use of magic tricks. Advisors to rulers of empires, only qualified by their ability to cut off the head of a chicken and bring it back to life. A populace kept in religious awe through witnessing the "Breath of God" working the temple doors. Etc.

The endless creativity and ability of the human machine to create the illusion of the paranormal is a beautiful thing, and within lies an important lesson; if my magic is not "real", then what else - that you may accept as truth - is illusion also? I think that this may well be an important message that could well benefit from a "magical illustration".

Love this post. I can realate in so many ways. Unfortunately, there is nothing - even magic - that can bring people closer to atheism. Beliefs are left to individuals.

 

[Shodan]

He's welcome to say I'm wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinion! I was just pointing out the extreme arrogance of putting it so strongly: He knows I'm wrong...despite this debate being about that which is unknowable!

brainchild, I'm glad that you enjoyed the posting.

 

[urban entropy]

There is no one today that is truly a chrisitian, or member of any other faith who blindly believes because they were raised that way. At some point you must take responsibilty and accept or deny faith on your own. And if that can be changed by a magic trick... it was never you faith any way.
Sharp

You sound so sure of yourself but I strongly beg to differ. Indoctrination is a very real thing and many many people who are intelligent grown adults are victims of it. There are many places outside the western world where the evidence of this is more than abundant.

Also, taking responsibility is not a strong suit for the extreme right wing. Atleast based on my expirience with those that stand on those beliefs. Faith is faith because it is without any evidence to prove beyond belief. Those who choose to believe that there is nothing out there beyond the here and now are just as valid and correct as those who believe there is more.

Raelins have just as much right as Christians. As do Jehovah's Witness, Catholics, Buddihists, and yes Satanists. The only thing that truly seperates you is taking responsibility for your actions, thoughts and ideas or not taking responsibility. Unfortunately lack of responsibility for ones actions is highly regarded and taught in today's western world and throughout history religion has been a huge contributer to that. Not the sole fault but a contributer none the less.

to S3al - To question those beliefs out there that may be holding us back as a race is not a bad thing at all. Wether they turn out to be true or not your beliefs do not as of now make you right about anything or more in the know how than anyone else. Your beliefs are your beliefs and I could be just as right or wrong about mine as you are about yours.

Rd

 

[Justin.Morris]

So anyway...on topic....


When I saw this thread, I expected more rational discussion...
I can totally see the point that was initially made. Encouraging someone to believe something that will hurt them is wrong. Whether that be "faith healers" doing "surgeries" or religious fanatics/extremists or con artists (religious or not). These all bring harm to people. I'm sure we can all agree.

As a Christian, I believe that people need to have a saving relationship with Jesus to spend eternity in heaven, so naturally I would lump someone trying to lead someone away from seeking God and salvation into the category of 'those trying to hurt others'.

However (now that the hair is standing on the back of your neck), I would point out that there is a huge difference between someone who is being deceitful (knowing the truth and lying) versus someone who sincerely believes they are helping others (via entertainment or whatever).

I like James Randi. I enjoy watching him debunk some of these goofs on TV (especially Popoff , but Wayno at spookclub.com made a great point about debunking someone who is an entertainer (like Uri Gellar perhaps?-I can’t say I know enough about him) vs. a con artist. Someone who is trying to make an honest living by saying he is ‘magical’, is not harming others, he is an actor or entertainer.

So, I agree with the idea that magic should challenge the way we think, regardless of what we believe. It should encourage us to seek the truth. It should cause us to realize that there is more to the world than just what we can see. It should help us to realize that not everything we see or experience is true, and yet we can know that there is a reality and a truth out there. Magic should help encourage us to seek what is true.

Justin

 

[OwnerM]

With time to reflect, I am not going to bother responding to those who either failed to understand the point of the original post or who are getting defensive about their religious views/offensive about my world view. I have spent years agonising about what I believe about the world, looking for truths and being open, and I don't feel the need to go round in the same tired old circles again.

All I will say about atheism "as a religion" is that the burden of proof falls to the person who asserts that something is there. Recognising the lack of evidence for something is not the same as taking it on faith that "something isn't there".

For those who feel that I am "attacking" or mocking - you should have found my writing on this topic to be clear, considered and thoughtful. As has been illustrated by examples given by myself and others, the use of magical illusion to illustrate the mundane explanations behind the so-called paranormal is documented and has been shown to be an interesting exercise.

Fails to prove it's point fully? I'll say. If there was definitive evidence for anything, there would be no debate.

It's funny that the concept of using magic to "lead people to Jesus Christ" is enthusiastically discussed, whereas the idea of using magic to open people's minds to take a look at what they take on faith is met with hostility. In both cases the aim is the same; to challenge people's perceptions. Yes, in some ways, this topic is a response to the Evangelistic one. Not a mockery, but a representation of another point of view.

To those that have attempted to discuss some of the questions raised in the original post, I thank you for your thoughts. RebelAce; Derren Brown thought the issue was important enough to write about at length and even to make a TV programme on; I guess he saw a connection between magic and religion!

As a closing thought, the notion that this topic could be percieved to be offensive to religious people should be as far-fetched as the idea that a topic on using magic as an evangelistic tool could be considered offensive to atheists.

STANDING OVATION TO YOU SIR!

You have said what I was thinking so beautifully. When I saw the Christian post, I stayed far away from it, because since I don't believe in that, there was no reason for me to post anything there. I had nothing to contribute, nothing to offer them, so I said nothing.

However, I do not (and will not) deny them the right to discuss the way to pursue their beliefs through magic. They believe it, they want to use magic, that's fine.

I would think that the Christian way would allow people who has a different opinion to have the same right. Guess not, huh?


Anyway, I am all for using magic to debunk psychics and the like. I try to do that in all my tricks. I do stage hypnosis, too. So with that, it's easy for me to illistrate that all this is simple suggestion. I don't do any exposure, but what I do does leave people thinking and questioning.

I am starting to use Mentalism now, mainly through card tricks. I like to show people that true magic is caused by normal human powers and science: not supernatural and devine unexplainable things.

edited to add:

So, I agree with the idea that magic should challenge the way we think, regardless of what we believe. It should encourage us to seek the truth. It should cause us to realize that there is more to the world than just what we can see. It should help us to realize that not everything we see or experience is true, and yet we can know that there is a reality and a truth out there. Magic should help encourage us to seek what is true.

Applause to you too, sir. Thank you!

 

[Shodan]

The last few posters have done a lot to restore my faith in the human race. Thankyou!

jtmorris, your last paragraph says exactly what is on my mind. I wonder if there is a way to actually do this, as part of an entertaining presentation? It seems that previous attempts at making this point to an audience have strayed way away from entertainment and more into the realms of "documentary".

OwnerM, I would love for you to contribute to this topic using the benefits of your experience. How do you balance the message with the entertainment? How do you stop it turning into a lecture?

Thanks all,
David

 

[jonraiker]

Guys,

Here's a question -- why use magic to lead people to anything? Whether it be Atheism, Christianity, Scientology, or Sesame Street-ism? Why not use magic purely for entertainment purposes? I know if I just witnessed an amazing effect that truly touched me, the last thing I'd want is for that feeling to be completely demolished by "So... do you believe in God?" -- "Well here's why you should / shouldn't..."

No need for this to turn into any sort of debate. Let's face it, it's going to take much more than a thread in a magic forum to sway anyone away from their belief system(s).

...and watch south park it might open your mind on some things

Although clever and hilarious, I don't think South Park is the best place in the world to pull credible information.

 

[Dave]

Guys,

Here's a question -- why use magic to lead people to anything? Whether it be Atheism, Christianity, Scientology, or Sesame Street-ism? Why not use magic purely for entertainment purposes? I know if I just witnessed an amazing effect that truly touched me, the last thing I'd want is for that feeling to be completely demolished by "So... do you believe in God?" -- "Well here's why you should / shouldn't..."

No need for this to turn into any sort of debate. Let's face it, it's going to take much more than a thread in a magic forum to sway anyone away from their belief system(s).

Although clever and hilarious, I don't think South Park is the best place in the world to pull credible information.

Humm.... I have to say this this is one of the most silliest response that I have seen in this thread.

I mean what is Magic or most performance Arts ? Isn't the point to take things that mean most to you and express them through your art ? I mean how would a performance be if you didn't put a little of your own heart and what defines you into it ? Am I wrong ? So what is wrong if I want to take something I love and something that I do that I love and use them both to share something with people that I love ?

Otherwise if magic was just about doing magic and nothing about what is in you or your heart wouldn't you just be a hobbyist who loves magic and performs tricks instead of a performance artists or a Magician who has an appreciation of every aspect of Magic ?


I think everyone else would agree that the put themselves into their magic no matter what level they are at. And personally for me, I am about my Lord and savior Jesus Christ because that is who I am. And I think that could be said for even the non-Christians, they are who they are and they put themselves into their magic.

You basically saying "Why put anything from you heart into it ? It is just magic" or maybe you are saying that Magic is above us and what we are about. What we believe or do not believe.

I get what you are trying to say but the truth is if you are performing magic it should be to lead someone to something even if it is an idea or vision that you hold within your heart.

 

[jonraiker]

Humm.... I have to say this this is one of the most silliest response that I have seen in this thread.

I mean what is Magic or most performance Arts ? Isn't the point to take things that mean most to you and express them through your art ? I mean how would a performance be if you didn't put a little of your own heart and what defines you into it ? Am I wrong ? So what is wrong if I want to take something I love and something that I do that I love and use them both to share something with people that I love ?

Otherwise if magic was just about doing magic and nothing about what is in you or your heart wouldn't you just be a hobbyist who loves magic and performs tricks instead of a performance artists or a Magician who has an appreciation of every aspect of Magic ?


I think everyone else would agree that the put themselves into their magic no matter what level they are at. And personally for me, I am about my Lord and savior Jesus Christ because that is who I am. And I think that could be said for even the non-Christians, they are who they are and they put themselves into their magic.

You basically saying "Why put anything from you heart into it ? It is just magic" or maybe you are saying that Magic is above us and what we are about. What we believe or do not believe.

I get what you are trying to say but the truth is if you are performing magic it should be to lead someone to something even if it is an idea or vision that you hold within your heart.

Dave,

I'm sorry you felt my response was "silly". I have to say you raised some excellent points. But have you really looked at it from a spectator's perspective? Let's say you come over to me at a bar, win me over, and I decide to give you some of my time -- because I'm interested in what it is you have to offer. You pull out a deck of cards and proceed to perform something incredibly amazing. I'm truly astonished, and in the midst of freaking out and asking how you did it, you go off into what sounds to me to be a scripted manifestation of your ulterior motive(s). "Have you ever accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior?"

It's at this point that my astonishment completely disintegrates. I'm more furious than anything else. "Ohhh... so THAT'S why he was showing me this stuff. Gosh, I hate these guys." I thank you for showing me something cool and proceed to exit the establishment. Of course, you feel as though you did what you set out to do. And, frankly, I'd feel like a pawn in your game of motives.

You see, I was enjoying the magic -- the feeling of witnessing something amazing that touches me in a way I hadn't felt before -- until you busted out why you were really there. I'd feel the real reason you approached me at that bar was to try to convert me to whatever it is YOU believe (somewhat against my will), not to take away the stresses of my life for a moment and simply be entertained. Of course, this would certainly be appropriate at a youth conference or in the correct setting, but in approaching strangers? Not so much. At least, not in my opinion.

The same applies to Atheists. I know if I was a Christian, Buddhist, etc. and I was approached by some dude wanting to tell me why he believed there was no God, I'd feel insanely used. I gave you a moment of my time to be entertained, not to feel awkward as you try to convert me to YOUR way of thinking.

You said that you should put what you're about into everything you do. And I agree. You should put your heart into your passions. But what you're saying is if I am passionate about cooking and also a devout Scientologist, then I should present myself as a Scientology Chef. I should make sure every person that eats my food understands that I believe Scientology is the RIGHT thing to believe, and that they should believe it to. After all, they ARE eating my food.

We need to understand that it's not a privilege for your audiences to watch YOU perform (as many magicians tend to believe these days). It should be your privilege to be able to perform for them, as they are allowing you a moment of their busy life to be ENTERTAINED.

Hope this helps to clear up my initial post a bit.

 

[Dave]

Dave,

I'm sorry you felt my response was "silly". I have to say you raised some excellent points. But have you really looked at it from a spectator's perspective? Let's say you come over to me at a bar, win me over, and I decide to give you some of my time -- because I'm interested in what it is you have to offer. You pull out a deck of cards and proceed to perform something incredibly amazing. I'm truly astonished, and in the midst of freaking out and asking how you did it, you go off into what sounds to me to be a scripted manifestation of your ulterior motive(s). "Have you ever accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior?"

It's at this point that my astonishment completely disintegrates. I'm more furious than anything else. "Ohhh... so THAT'S why he was showing me this stuff. Gosh, I hate these guys." I thank you for showing me something cool and proceed to exit the establishment. Of course, you feel as though you did what you set out to do. And, frankly, I'd feel like a pawn in your game of motives.

You see, I was enjoying the magic -- the feeling of witnessing something amazing that touches me in a way I hadn't felt before -- until you busted out why you were really there. I'd feel the real reason you approached me at that bar was to try to convert me to whatever it is YOU believe (somewhat against my will), not to take away the stresses of my life for a moment and simply be entertained. Of course, this would certainly be appropriate at a youth conference or in the correct setting, but in approaching strangers? Not so much. At least, not in my opinion.

The same applies to Atheists. I know if I was a Christian, Buddhist, etc. and I was approached by some dude wanting to tell me why he believed there was no God, I'd feel insanely used. I gave you a moment of my time to be entertained, not to feel awkward as you try to convert me to YOUR way of thinking.

We need to understand that it's not a privilege for your audiences to watch YOU perform (as many magicians tend to believe these days). It should be your privilege to be able to perform for them, as they are allowing you a moment of their busy life to be ENTERTAINED.

Hope this helps to clear up my initial post a bit.

I can see your point. Understand though that witness to people is not just walking up to someone and saying"How do you feel about God" What I am talking about is the same thing I see Blaine , Chris Angels and even some real Magicians "Just Joking" do all the time. The perform and either at some point or at the end of the performance they say a few words on a view they may have.

One of the reason I wanted to start the thread I was no to witness to anyone on these forums or even really to talk about God or Jesus. It was about Dealing with the many stereotypes and issues that we run into mostly because of other Christians and false representation of the Gospel.

Because you are right. If I just performed magic and then just busted out with " Repent or go to hell!!" What would that be . Wouldn't do any good for anything. And let me tell you, I have used magic a lot and have gotten a lot of Job offers(that I don't accept because of the circumstances at that time).

I know that you are not a Christian and I know that there are many that are not but.. As a Christian Evangelist a part of being who I am is witnessing and the Bible tells us that we must meet a person on the natural realm before we try to talk to them about the Spiritual realm . For me and many others some on this forum, Magic is the way to meet them on the natural realm.

My post was not meant to spark argument or debates it was for those who were interested in the discussion to discuss. And if you would have read it you would see that after it was evident that nothing constructive was going to come out of it I requested it to be deleted. 2 times even.

I am sorry from posting all this stuff on this post but it is obvious that this post would have never been written if I hadn't have started mine.

Believe or not it my beef is not at all with Atheist or anyone else who does not believe. God tells us not to judge world. I do however have a beef , and you may see it in my post, with the problems I have to deal with when we have people who are not real Christians or even True Christians show a bad example or false representation.

If you are interested take a look: At least read the first post that I posted so that you can see my intent. Either way please when you are done remove the post all together please.

http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=1134

Thank you

 

[jonraiker]

I know that you are not a Christian and I know that there are many that are not...

No need to jump to assumptions. You might be surprised. Although, I understand where it may come off a certain way through my posts.

Either way please when you are done remove the post all together please.

Are you sure you'd like to delete your thread? I think all avenues should remain open for discussion. I see both threads containing very valuable information.

Let me know. Thanks Dave!

 

[OwnerM]

My humble opinion:

Neither thread should be deleted. Both are important to the topic of magic and I see your point as well, jonraiker: Sometime you do a trick to do a trick ("A cigar is sometimes just a cigar" ).

However, I do want to make a point.

Magic IS an art. No question. The florishes, the gaffs, the sleights are all part of training and practice. Like a painter or a musician, this is an art. Period.

And it's true, like sometimes a painter just paints for fun or a singer sings in the shower, a magician performs for just the sheer joy of it.

But I think both these threads are about that part of our art that we do to make some kind of impact: to make them think and question. Magic one of the most powerful ways to get people to think.

The beauty of it is that you get to point the mind in which direction you'd like them to think about. I tend to enjoy getting people to second guess psychics and the like.

I tell people before a show that I have no special powers, that what I do anyone can do with a knowledge and practice, and that seeing the future, talking to dead people, hypnosis and mind control does not exist.

I then proceed to hypnotize people, and now, predict cards choices and read minds.

And at the end, I remind the people once again that everything done is a trick. The audience still enjoys the performace the same way, but now, they are thinking, they are questioning and remembering.

Isn't that what we are supposed to do?