Can mentalism be combined with magic?

[datskanars]

i agree with visualartist. The audience doesn's care that much if you combine the two. They will be entertained and that's what they all care about. In my opinion they can be combined with the right presentation and character.

Bottom line: you can do whatever you like as long as you entertain cause after all magicians and mentalist alike are all entertainers


George

 

[datskanars]

To nerds like us, yes.

I have often been asked as a metal fan if there is a point distinguishing the differences between folk metal, black metal, and Viking metal. The assertion is that the labels don't matter because it's like... all about the muuuusic, maaaaaan; it's all what's... what's on the inside, you know? Like, wow, man.

But labels and cataloging do matter in direct proportion to how much you care.[/QUOTE]

to us yes but Luke Jermay clearly states that our opinion about a show doesn't matter . it is all about the spectator's ecperience [ and Derren told him that as he states in 3510].


George

 

[Steerpike]

to us yes but Luke Jermay clearly states that our opinion about a show doesn't matter . it is all about the spectator's ecperience [ and Derren told him that as he states in 3510].

I wasn't asking for your opinion about a show. I was making a point about the nuts and bolts of the art. Please make that distinction in the future as I'm in too good of a mood to continue having to explain myself.

 

[KeoSilver]

i agree with visualartist. The audience doesn's care that much if you combine the two. They will be entertained and that's what they all care about.

It isn't that the audience consciously cares because entertained is entertained. It is just that when you discredit your abilities as a mind reader with a magic trick, a blatantly obvious one like a visual color change. It tends to make people dismiss your abilities and not allow it to connect at the emotional level mentalists want.

In my opinion they can be combined with the right presentation and character.

Bottom line: you can do whatever you like as long as you entertain cause after all magicians and mentalist alike are all entertainers


George

I agree with your opinion, now moving onto the bottom line.

Some mentalist do not like it when you slap them in with magicians, because it discredits them by association. See the thing that I think people may be missing or just sliding around is that different entertainers connect with different emotions.
Jugglers and comedians create a different bond then say Metallica and with there audience.

 

[Randy]

Some mentalist do not like it when you slap them in with magicians, because it discredits them by association. See the thing that I think people may be missing or just sliding around is that different entertainers connect with different emotions.
Jugglers and comedians create a different bond then say Metallica and with there audience.

That is because it is the mentalist's job to make you believe in what he or she is doing. Otherwise the show will pretty much be a huge flop. When a magician does something such as Metal bending. It looks less impossible and turns into a cute party trick. The same can be said for when a magician tries to add mentalism to their act. It just looks silly and ruins the entire principle behind Mentalsim. Which to invoke the belief that the performer can actually read your thoughts or do what he/she is saying they can do.

 

[visualartist]

That is because it is the mentalist's job to make you believe in what he or she is doing. Otherwise the show will pretty much be a huge flop. When a magician does something such as Metal bending. It looks less impossible and turns into a cute party trick. The same can be said for when a magician tries to add mentalism to their act. It just looks silly and ruins the entire principle behind Mentalsim. Which to invoke the belief that the performer can actually read your thoughts or do what he/she is saying they can do.

So when say,david blaine,involves mentalism or mental magic into his repertoire it comes off as a cute party trick?
David blaine has also made people believe in what he is doing.
I personally know a few people.

 

[toyrobot]

That is because it is the mentalist's job to make you believe in what he or she is doing. Otherwise the show will pretty much be a huge flop. When a magician does something such as Metal bending. It looks less impossible and turns into a cute party trick. The same can be said for when a magician tries to add mentalism to their act. It just looks silly and ruins the entire principle behind Mentalsim. Which to invoke the belief that the performer can actually read your thoughts or do what he/she is saying they can do.

No, the mentalist's job - his actual job - is to put on a really good show and to convince people they didn't buy $80 tickets for nothing. If he can convince you he's honestly, super honestly real? A real psychic? He's doing a great job! But it's by no means a requisite.

Maybe what you're thinking is, you know, the theatrical aspect of it all, and that a mentalist should be in character and portray himself as real, the same way an actor portrays their role in a movie as real. Yes! But you can't expect them to actually convince a rational crowd of human beings that psychic phenomena exists through billet work and metal bending.

As for their show being a huge flop... I don't believe for a second that Derren Brown is really some body-language, NLP psychology master. I know it's all tricks. His shows are not flops to me (and before you say, "Oh, I meant laymen!", I can say the same for the non-magicians among my social circle). This goes for pretty much every other mentalist ever.

Your statements about magicians doing mentalism are generalized, butchered arguments from the age-old magic vs. mentalism debate. I will say this: presentation. David Blaine was my first experience of mentalism, when I was just a little toyrobot and didn't know any magic. He revealed thought of cards and numbers, and did a drawing duplication. He sold it, and I bought it, completely, and so did many other people.

And, again, since you recapped yourself, I will too: a professional mentalist's job is to put on a hell of a show. The vast majority of his audience knows he is not psychic. They may not know how he did whatever he did, and they may be entranced by his devotion to character, and they may suspend disbelief and enjoy the theater of it all - but no.

 

[Randy]

And, again, since you recapped yourself, I will too: a professional mentalist's job is to put on a hell of a show. The vast majority of his audience knows he is not psychic. They may not know how he did whatever he did, and they may be entranced by his devotion to character, and they may suspend disbelief and enjoy the theater of it all - but no.
Reply With Quote

Don't be so sure about that. People generally thought Uri Gellar was Psychic. They've thought the same about Bob Cassidy and a few of the other top mentalist out there.

 

[KeoSilver]

Don't be so sure about that. People generally thought Uri Gellar was Psychic. They've thought the same about Bob Cassidy and a few of the other top mentalist out there.

Wasn't there a guy who tricked America that he could move things with his mind? One of the things he was known for was turning a page in a book without touching it. What of Peter Popoff, I would classify him into the category of mentalist. He has tricked his audience into believing that some godly being is talking to him telling him about other peoples problems. You know what, many people believe it, that is how powerful of a bond he has made with his audience.

 

[toyrobot]

Don't be so sure about that. People generally thought Uri Gellar was Psychic. They've thought the same about Bob Cassidy and a few of the other top mentalist out there.

Which is why I said the majority. Your typical stage worker won't get that, because a real psychic wouldn't need the constraints a mentalist needs, and probably wouldn't be putting on a magic show. Uri Gellar sold himself differently, as did the Crossing Over guy who spoke to dead people. They're all essentially performing a stage show, but they just sell it as something different.

Mind you, Randy, I'm not opposed at all to the idea of developing a character to such depths that people really believe in what you claim. I'm just saying you don't have to do it to have a successful show that people love.

 

[Steerpike]

Don't be so sure about that. People generally thought Uri Gellar was Psychic. They've thought the same about Bob Cassidy and a few of the other top mentalist out there.

There are people who believe that Derren Brown is a genuine psychic. But that doesn't mean it was his goal, especially considering Derren has never made earnest claims to the paranormal and instead dresses up his entire act in the most convoluted pseudo-science imaginable as a red herring for the fact that he's just doing a billet switch.

Wasn't there a guy who tricked America that he could move things with his mind?

Which one? There's like a dozen.

What of Peter Popoff, I would classify him into the category of mentalist. He has tricked his audience into believing that some godly being is talking to him telling him about other peoples problems. You know what, many people believe it, that is how powerful of a bond he has made with his audience.

I wouldn't. Mostly because I don't like the name of my profession being equated with parasitic faith healers. My great grandmother lost her sister because she believed a faith healer could save her instead of doctors.

 

[Randy]

I wouldn't. Mostly because I don't like the name of my profession being equated with parasitic faith healers. My great grandmother lost her sister because she believed a faith healer could save her instead of doctors.

The same happened to Andy Kaufmen.

I forgot to mention one main guy who makes people believe he is Psychic. The Amazing Kreskin and he's been doing it for decades and still going strong. I'm pretty sure Max Maven also does thee as well.

 

[Mr.MadMan]

The same happened to Andy Kaufmen.

I forgot to mention one main guy who makes people believe he is Psychic. The Amazing Kreskin and he's been doing it for decades and still going strong. I'm pretty sure Max Maven also does thee as well.

Cant talk about Kreskin. But...

Maven does not care anymore. He lets the audience deside in what they belive in , he does not say that he has powers but he makes it clear that what ever he is doing is very very hard!

Mikk

 

[visualartist]

I wouldn't. Mostly because I don't like the name of my profession being equated with parasitic faith healers. My great grandmother lost her sister because she believed a faith healer could save her instead of doctors.

These faith healers have always interested me. Id have to check with my father but there are healers in mexico that we know of and I have met who have actually cured people of their ailments. But they aren't the dancing like crazy and dressing up in feathers kind of people.
I have always been skeptical of this kind of stuff because it has always sounded too far-fetched but I have actually witnessed this stuff in the work and..it has worked. I knew of this woman who cured my grandmother of some kind of bladder problem(might be something else but in that general area of the body) when she couldnt afford the doctor. With prayer and deep meditation and tea with herbs. I thought it was a load of bull****.
But 7 years later,my grandmother,that old hag is alive and well. She's 70-ish.
The thing that bothered me when I was skeptical is that the woman never charged a dime.Ever.

 

[Steerpike]

Some genuinely believe what they're doing. Which I find to be pretty dangerous.

If they're charging you for it, like that slime televangelist did to my relatives, or like Sylvia Browne does for (ironically) ungodly prices, then you can bet it's a scam.

 

[Randy]

tea with herbs

Well that might explain some of it sense it's been said that Green or any other kind of herbal tea is supposed to be really good for you.

 

[Steerpike]

Well that might explain some of it sense it's been said that Green or any other kind of herbal tea is supposed to be really good for you.

It's good for you in that it's rich in minerals, which are good for keeping the body strong. You can get the same effect from eating a salad. Herbal remedies are largely placebos.

Keep in mind that faith healers can sometimes stumble on a success by accident and people will attribute it to their holiness. Grigori Rasputin cured the czar's son of hemophilia, but that was largely because Rasputin insisted the boy stop taking the various medications that doctors were giving him, including aspirin. Aspirin helps prevent clots from forming in the blood, not that Rasputin knew that.