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Card Sandwich Performance/tutorial
- Thread starter BlueberryCards
- Start date
When I was 8 years old, I accidentally figured out on my own averages work. I am not however egomaniacal enough to think that I thus deserve credit for the idea of mathematically calculating averages. That is the issue at hand here.
Sorry. Just remembered you don't like when I draw comparisons or make analogies. Alright. I'll try it your way. Accidentally stumbling onto a really effective move or sleight is pretty cool. However, the odds of it being original are pretty damn slim. To just assume that you are the first person in history to have ever had this thought... is kind of a ****ty thing to do. Especially on the off-chance that the guy who got their first is still alive.
Part of the problem is that the whole concept of actually recording our secrets for posterity is a relatively new concept. We've already lost eons of the art's history. A lot of the mechanics have obviously survived. But there's a lot of gaps when it comes to names. Even Max Maven when asked who invented the Buddha papers shrugged and said, "Buddha." So misinformation and careless teaching through exposure is seen by a lot of the veteran magicians as the small aspect of a bigger problem. The large majority of exposure will never do any real harm, due to the fact that most people who expose are not what you would call experts in marketing and communication. Nonetheless it's considered polite not to post it anyway.
Hopefully now you understand why krab and myself can get a burr under our saddles about this. You guys have access to a crapload of information that is literally at your fingertips. There's no really good excuse for getting it wrong when you have every opportunity to get it right. And if people are here, then they have an interest in talking to other magicians. But if you want to do that, you're still going to be held to the social contract. Deliberately exposing and miscrediting material that you did not originally create is still considered wrong. We can't make you do anything, but if you openly thumb your nose at people, don't be surprised when they stop talking to you.
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It's not the analogy that threw me off. I understood that perfectly. Well, except for the 15 minutes part, but I'm sure you didn't literally mean 15 minutes. What threw me off was the mention of how "Everyone wants to be YouTube famous, but no one wants to be good at anything." That seemed like it was straight out of left field. It didn't relate to what you were saying, in the fact that, just because he didn't credit someone, doesn't mean his performance, or overall video, was bad. But I digress, I agree with you guys, in some points, but I just feel that some people take crediting to a whole new level, that causes difficulty, and decrease in creativeness. Magic is an industry, and in industry, there is competition. It's just something you have to deal with. I'm not saying never credit someone, but I am saying I think it is more necessary in certain situations. That will always be my opinion.
What happens when you stop giving credit is creators stop putting things out into the market. When you release something that has only a minor difference than something that is already out there creators will stop releasing. It seems like ethic in magic is a dying beast.
Teller of Penn and Teller is in a lawsuit with someone who lifted one of his effects that he never released. The guy is selling it as his own. There is a magician on this forum that had one of his effects lifted by Criss Angel with no credit. We live in an age where a large chunk of people under 30 think it is okay you download things for free from the internet or think they can use what ever they want with out paying for it and or giving proper credit. I'm hoping Teller wins his lawsuit. It will give creators more legal power to go after those stealing effects and reselling them. Also if you don't think magicians care look up the deal with Magic Makers and why most magicians will not buy from them.
Dude, I see this constantly. Everyone's looking for a shortcut and they have a whole pallet-load of excuses not to try harder or fix their mistakes. How long could you put up with that before you finally say, "Enough?"
So it's totally cool for this guy to take credit for something he didn't actually invent? Is that where this is going?
And? I'm an unclear why you felt the need to add this.
Ok now I am confused again... His video was good. If you are knocking it because of the credit thing, you had already said that and your last comment in your original post was unnecessary. That is why I was confused. If you are saying his video was bad for some other reason, than your comment could be necessary, but you should have added why. It just came across as rude. And no, I said he should go back and give the credit, but not take down the video. That is ridiculous. And I put the last line in to stress that one, my opinion will remain the same, because that is what I believe. And, two, it is just that, an opinion. My opinion. An opinion I have even after reading your opinions. I can do whatever I wan't with my opinion. Just as you can too. Not one time, have I said that this is fact. That is why it is necessary, because everything I have said has been my opinion.
He should take it down because he is exposing magic he did not create. That isn't an opinion, it is fact. It's fact he is exposing. It's fact those slights are not his to expose. It fact that it goes against every magic fraternity bylaws in the world. The IBM, the SAM, Magic Castle, Magic Circle, all of them are anti exposure.
No, it really wasn't. While he does get some brownie points for showing his face, the majority of the video was more of the same cliches I've been telling people for years not to perpetuate.
That is the disagreement front and center in this conversation, yes. That and the fact that he shouldn't be exposing stuff that isn't his because that's kind of a dick move.
I had a response to this, but it wasn't very classy. Suffice to say you're in a glass house on this one.
Oh, he can leave the video up if he wants. I can't stop him. Doesn't change the fact that would be a dumb idea.
Then you don't have an opinion, you have a belief. There's a difference.
You don't have to say that you think your opinions are facts. You just have to act like it. On top of that, opinions are not a shield. You don't hide behind them. You have to actively support them with sound logic and well-reasoned argument. I can say that Dirt by Alice in Chains is the best album of the 90's, but I better have a damn good case ready to back that up.
Also, the desire to explicitly remind me that everything you've said is opinion only tells me that you lack the courage of conviction to really debate this with me. You throw it up like a shield as soon as you're challenged to provide a better argument than what someone else gave. I'd go so far as to suggest that you're invoking this cliche specifically to try and drive off people like krab and myself. By trivializing all arguments down to "just opinions" you don't have to listen to or think about a word we say.
The consensus of the magic community is not to expose things you didn't create or claim something as yours when it obviously isn't. What is your argument for why this should be done away with? What is the logic behind your defense of exposure videos?
Ok hold on a sec. I'm no worker or pro by any means but this IS an ethics issue and therefore I would like to weigh in. Lets say you create a move and by some aligning of the planets it IS original. You decide to sell it. Not long after you start to sell it someone else starts selling your trick but calling it theirs. How would you feel. See the issue is magic as a whole lacks something that almost every other art has, laws protecting creativity and intellectual property. If you claim to have written a song you had nothing to do with you are going to have legal trouble or if you reproduce the Mona Lisa and sell it as the original you will be go to jail. Magic and Magicains have unfortunately been forced to become self policing and therefore people like Krab1 and Steerpike among many others work hard to make sure things are done right. If you look at any release on T11 you will find credits...a lot of credits which is great. It does take some effort but it is important. If we don't know where we come from how will we know where we are going? Steerpike's YouTube famous comment is about how so many people post poorly done videos of themselves performing other people's tricks without going to the trouble of saying "hey if you like this trick, (insert name here) created it. Its not mine" We have the internet there is no reason credit can't be given. If you have time to learn the move and shoot the video and add all the fluff to it you have time to do some research. http://conjuringarts.org/ the Conjuring Arts Research Center offers quick and easy access to over 9000 documents scanned and made searchable. A few keyword searches and you can find what you are looking for.