Celebrity Match - Thank you so much guys!

[D ICE R]

And D ICE R, 'Mentalism' defined:
men·tal·ism (mntl-zm)
n.
1. Parapsychological activities, such as telepathy and mind reading.
2. The belief that some mental phenomena cannot be explained by physical laws.

Obviously everything magicians do can be 'explained by physical laws,' but, not by laymen.
So, in a case where he provides objects, the spectator has a free selection, to which he provides a prediction in a fair, clean manner, is - in my book - mentalism.

Firstly where did you get that definition of mentalism from, and secondly using your definition of what mentalism is how does the effect bench mark to that.
My primary problem with the effect is you have openly stated you are going to influence the spectator to think of one of 6 celebrities. So any procedure which diverts from think of one got it ok instantly takes away from the parapsychological nature, which mentalism is based on.

The most important aspect of mentalism is the mentalist, he has this power either by something psychic or as become popular now days and amazing understanding of NLP and suggestion. But ultimately at the end of the day the mentalist as a power/skill that he is demonstrating. The effect in which he chooses to perform should demonstrate this power and should follow the most logical procedure.

In this effect by asking someone to choose a celebrity by selecting a number feels illogical especially considering the names are openly displayed. This will make the effect feel like a trick and inturn the apparent nature of the mind reading is lost and you merely become a magician again. When the audience believes something has happened it is just as bad as if they know what has happened. This contradicts the second point towards your definition of mentalism.

We can discuss this further if you would like. However if you are truly interested in mentalism I suggest you look into Fundmentals by Bob Cassidy.

Actually while you are at it I suggest you look at The Master Mind Reader himself perform after looking at either of these two presentation compared to Spidey's effect you will instantly why this is mental magic and Bob Cassidy is a mentalist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQpVZ9xQW-8 Remote Viewing (so much out of one move)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC-rwZdqckA 4DT the best mentalism effect ever created.

 

[Spidey]

Beans25: Thank you for remaining politically correct as opposed to going on an insulting rampage, i appreciate the grace of your criticism. To answer your question, we all know that alot of creations nowadays are variations. This routine simplifies an existing principle by giving the performer ONE prediction in a single envelope which will not be switched and MOST OF THE TIME can be examined. It also gives it a presentation that I personally believe gets people emotionally, especially women. Did I invent the principle at work NO, did I refine it, modernize it and find a way "out" that makes this quite a bit cleaner....i certainly believe so. Would you argue that there is NO creativity at work here on my end?

As for those of you who believe that it is unjustified to have them name a number in order to get to a name. I disagree. If you do a card effect where you have a person select a card, shuffle it in, name a number between 1-52 and the card is at that position, I think that would constitute a miracle. And i DEFINITELY believe it would be better than having predicted on a piece of paper the number that was named. In this case, I say in the presentation that influencing their choice of a celebrity is difficult because they might be Bias, BUT a number I can do. As a demonstration of influence, and a subconscious decision it makes sense that I would have them name a number. At least I think so. I guess its a question of how the performer can make this work. I can make it work, and I believe the trailer is fair, anyone watching that might decide its not their style, other might find great value in it.


AS for the whole Mental magic VS mentalism debate....in my opinion....who cares?! Do you think that you audience will ever care if an effect falls in the category mental magic or mentalism?!?! After this effect they will go home and tell their friends and family "This guy predicted the choice i was going to make!!!" So whether I used double blank cards or business cards does not matter for a second. BESIDES! Do you guys REALLLLLY think that a laymen identifies those double blank cards as double blank playing cards...honestly, that has NEVER happened to me. They refer to them as index cards. In my opinion, for what it's worth, mentalism is anything in which you convince the spectator that you have toyed with their minds, and this is such an effect. Give it the title you want, mental magic or mentalsim, what difference does it make? The spectator will believe you actually predicted their choice.


thanks guys!
Spidey

 

[NathanaelBergenMagic]

AS for the whole Mental magic VS mentalism debate....in my opinion....who cares?! Do you think that you audience will ever care if an effect falls in the category mental magic or mentalism?!?! After this effect they will go home and tell their friends and family "This guy predicted the choice i was going to make!!!" [...] In my opinion, for what it's worth, mentalism is anything in which you convince the spectator that you have toyed with their minds, and this is such an effect. Give it the title you want, mental magic or mentalsim, what difference does it make? The spectator will believe you actually predicted their choice.
Spidey

Well put Spidey, couldn't agree more.

 

[Austin Fields]

AS for the whole Mental magic VS mentalism debate....in my opinion....who cares?! Give it the title you want, mental magic or mentalsim, what difference does it make?

Is that your final answer Spidey? If it is..*dramatic music* then over here....

IN THIS VERY THREAD

WOULD YOU BELIEVE THAT I HAD PREDICTED THE OUTCOME? *Scifi music picks up*

Prepare to be...

I know magicians may not understand or care about the distinction between the two

MINDFREAK.

are you ready?

 

[Liderc]

Quite tempted to engage within the discussion,

 

[Lyle Borders]

Is that your final answer Spidey? If it is..*dramatic music* then over here....

IN THIS VERY THREAD

WOULD YOU BELIEVE THAT I HAD PREDICTED THE OUTCOME? *Scifi music picks up*

Prepare to be...


MINDFREAK.

are you ready?

Therein lies the point. You are sitting in a magic forum. We don't (for the most part) care about the differences here. Why? Because mentalism is just another branch of magic. Those who take the branch called mentalism to its top form (and many who want to) typically try to break away from the rest of magic (as obvious trickery) and pretend their ability is real.

The argument comes to this. A trick based on mentalism principles that is not "good enough" for an elite mentalist is being put aside as inferior due to personal preference and called mental magic. An elite mentalist might care. The rest of the magicians don't.

Terminology is a tricky thing. I too wonder where that last definition came from. It is not in any dictionary I have ever looked through. Mentalism is a term of our own invention. I pick up this trick, call it mentalism, but don't call myself a mentalist because that is not what I am. I am a card worker. A mentalist picks this trick up, calls it a mental magic trick, and never performs it because it doesn't fit into what he is looking for. My point from the beginning had nothing to do with the subject, other than stomping out a problem that was starting. I won't argue the magic vs mentalism debate. There is no winner to this argument. Magicians will call it mentalism. Specialized magicians called Mentalists will call it mental magic. Is there a right or wrong?

Way back when I was taught a card trick involving math. In it you were able to divine a selected playing card. I am a card magician, as I started earlier. I could be tempted to call this "math magic" because it doesn't fit my idea and foundation of a card trick. That does not change the trick or the fact that it is still a magic trick using cards.

On a side note, no, I will ban nobody that doesn't deserve it. Arguments foster thought. I encourage them. They are healthy and needed. Just don't step past the boundaries of the forum rules, or you will find out who the big fish in this pond are.

Off to work.

L

 

[D ICE R]

Whilst I don't perform ACAAN your arugment is flawed, due to the fact the card has already been selected and choosing the number is to arrive at the choosen card. The counting process is the end result not the initial selection, also the spectator has no idea where any card is and that is the mystery of the effect. Having six names on the table and asking for a number 1-6 digressed from the normal selection procedure especially since your most cokmon numbers are the weakest reveals. I put it too you using a window envelope and a swami whilst a more demendaing method appears to be much more of a pure mentalism effect. Hell get people to call out random celebrities and just equivoque the force one.

As for the mental magic mentalism debate, it matters to mentalists because for the most part, the methods we use are completely different to the methods magicians use. Lots of magicians cannot perform mentalism because they cannot understand that it is fundamentally different from magic. Billets, booktests and contact mind reading were not created by magicians their basic methods stem back to spiritualism.

Obviously magicians what to perform mentalism because it is popular, and I have no problem with that. All I ask is the you respect the art enough to actually learn about it and how to effectively perform it. Once you truly understand what mentalism is you will have people believing you can actually do what you claim to be rather than that guy who has good tricks.

 

[Spidey]

first of all, i never mentioned ACAAN. I merely made up a description of an effect where a selected card is placed back and ends up at the spectators chosen number. That is a miracle and just revealing the number is useless. Its like a booktest, you tell a person to go to a page think of the first word and then you tell them what the word is...why not just tell them what the page number is, it stands to reason that if you know the page number you know the word. For someone who seems to REALLY understand mentalism,it amazes me that you don't see how a great presentation can justify certain actions in the course of a routine.

As for the whole mentalism thing. Beans, I love the dramatic touch of your message lol, i imagined the music and stuff, but your prediction fell short on one aspect. I am more of a mentalist that a magician. At least in performance. I create more magic for some reason I have a mind for it. BUT in performance I do ALOT more mentalism. AND if we look at some of the GREATEST mentalists, they ALL use things that you guys seem to classify as "mental magic". Banachek has MANY routines with double blank cards, an effect with company logos as well as a picture duplication effect to name a few. T.A. Waters did TONS of card effects that he himself classified as mentalism, and MANY effects with blank cards that nobody would ever debate the nature of. MAX MAVEN: how many effects does max maven have with blank cards with words or logos or pictures on them? Like...a million?

I really believe that due to the different backgrounds that we come from we all have different views on mentalism. I know a local mentalist...and i mean MENTALIST who saw me lecture celebrity match and absolutely swears by it. Its not a question of is this mentalism or is it not, its a question of does it suit your style or does it not.



xoxo gossip girl!

 

[JD]

You know Spidey, you should be proud. You got people talking about you and your effect. Good job.
I honestly agree with your view on the deal with mental magic or mentalism.
Your audience will not know the difference. Seriously.
I'm sorry D ICE R. I've always respected you and your knowledge but you seem to be getting a little bit terse with this. Is there a reason you care what the effect is? Why does it bother you that Spidey calls it a mentalism effect? I just don't get it.

 

[Spidey]

guys! instead of disagreeing and focusing on our differences lets focus on what we've done together... this is the hottest topic on the Wire forum and we've all played an active part...mentalists and mind magicians alike...or is that the same thing :S LOL

Thanks for the kind words JD !!!!

thanks to all the fans and supporters and as per your requests, im starting to work on the other effects from the Wayne Houchin project

Spidey

 

[JD]

I can't wait. I know you released OH! and that got some good reviews.

 

[Lyle Borders]

I can't wait. I know you released OH! and that got some good reviews.

Wholeheartedly agreed. This effect is killer, and I can't wait to see more!

Look forward to it!

L

 

[Spidey]

OMG! people actually know about OH! ?!?!?! Do you guys have ANY idea how FEW of those I sold. It was terrible. HOWEVER anyone who saw it loved it. But for some reason I couldnt sell any, despite the fact that i actually teach a SEALED BOTTLE method in there :S weeeeeird

I figured by now most magicians know me either because of Ultra Gum with Richard Sanders or my art of attraction project. But thanks for mentioning OH! lol... im so glad s distinct few know what that is

Spidey

 

[JD]

Guess I'll really blow your mind then. I also know about Disintigration. Not too shabby there man.

 

[Spidey]

LOL stop lying! you looked up my history and pulled that out HAHAHAHA

thats OOOOOLLLLDDDD.... hahaha glad u liked it

but believe it or not...Disintigration KILLED OH! in sales. I think its because when OH! came out there was factory sealed, bullet and 600000 other something in bottles, or maybe it was just a bad time for the market, i dont know, but OH! did NOT get out there ...
have you seen art of attraction or Ultra gum? those are my two pride and joys

 

[JD]

Not lying man. I knew of Disinitigration and OH. However, I did not know of Art of Attraction (I kind of want that now that I've looked it up) and I had no idea you were on Ultra Gum.

 

[Spidey]

lol if ur interessted in the Art of Attraction just wait a few months. Were working on a second one that will put the first one to shame! It will have live footage with hidden cameras, our ENTIRE method will be taught and i had magic contributions from HUGE names in magic... big stars...ull see

the first art of attraction is good.... but the delivery of the social theory is a little boring, even if the material is solid... either way....the second one will OWN!


Spidey

 

[Toby]

Hehe, I actually have disintegration Didn't know about OH! until now, and can't wait for new Art of Attraction

 

[JD]

Hey Spidey do you have a website? I want to buy AoA and Disinitgration but I can't find them online.

 

[Spidey]

JD add me on facebook... well talk; Bedros Spidey Akkelian