Classic Pass Questions

[OsakaMidnight]

Wow really dropped the ball on this thread, sorry!

Any update? Would be happy to help more if you need it!

It's going okay. I'm still having issues, of course, and most attempts with newer decks that are still relatively smooth leave me with cards all over the place. However working with some of my better broken in decks is getting easier. My pass is still really angle heavy and awkward, but it's getting better. I bought the Jason England video on the classic pass and I'm working on it when the feeling strikes me (although I have so many things to practice I'm sort of bouncing between all of them just to build coordination and muscle in my hands).

but if you really want to learn the pass download Jason England tutorial he even shows you some really good covers for this slight
James

I just picked it up. It's a life saver for sure.

Seriously guys...why doesn't anyone talk about the panoramic shift,that's literally one of the best controls I know, apart from the pass.

I'll be sure to check it out.

 

[Ned Devine]

My advice is to spend your time learning other sleights that are more useful than the classic pass. I know of very few routines that actually use the classic pass.

I would listen to the big dog on this one. For instance I used to use the classic pass all the time till I realised mine was garbage. For some reason people have an obsession with this move, is my pass better now, Yes. Do I use it all the time, No. My routines don't use it, I have one or two effects that are really good for it but otherwise I don't use it.

Just put that move on the back burner for now.

Instead learn 4 coins across!

 

[OsakaMidnight]

@RealityOne
@Ned Devine

Thanks. Yeah, I'm failing to see a ton of applications for the pass. As a historian, which is to say someone who has a history degree and no aversion towards 700 page history books, I was really taken in by the idea of the old staple move painstakingly practiced by old frenchmen in suits. However, without a ton of effects that make it absolutely necessary I'm going to keep the classic pass on the back burner and practice it when my hands are tired from all the other sleights I'm working on.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

@RealityOne
@Ned Devine

Thanks. Yeah, I'm failing to see a ton of applications for the pass. As a historian, which is to say someone who has a history degree and no aversion towards 700 page history books, I was really taken in by the idea of the old staple move painstakingly practiced by old frenchmen in suits. However, without a ton of effects that make it absolutely necessary I'm going to keep the classic pass on the back burner and practice it when my hands are tired from all the other sleights I'm working on.

Definitely go and learn other controls.

However, if you want some other ideas, see what you can do with a pass outside of a control.

Personally, I have studied and practiced the pass the most out of any move, and am comfortable using it. I use it everyday, but I respect anyone who doesn't like it. I use it to set up tricks, get rid of cards, control cards, force cards, color changes, etc. It should not be taken as a move to be used in a trick, but rather as a utility move to help your trick.

1 more thing to note about the pass.
You always here magicians be like "Oh, you gotta get the pass down perfect, it needs to be done quickly, it needs to be done invisibly, it needs to be done when your hands are grilled, it's gotta be perfect, [etc]". That is 100% BS. The Pass does not need to be done fast, or perfectly. It doesn't have to be invisible, you just have to make sure no one sees it. The most important thing about the move is not the move in and of itself, but rather the misdirection with it.

 

[GKID]

I dont have time to read all of these and read everything because i gotta go, long story short:
I use a jiggle pass right after i close up a spread while the cards are messy:
-My right hand NEVER moves and grips the deck tightly
-My left hand is completely relaxed and i do the move relaxed
-Watch your shoulders, make sure they arent raised whenever u wanna perform
-Pinky, up to first joint, middle + ring, over top relaxed, index, on side for stabilisation
-The left pinky does more than half of the work, only after it completely clears my fingers curl a tiny bit to square up the deck faster

When i was starting magic i was doing the pass for well over a year and i couldnt even do the move, untill i watched the god pass video, i could do it instantly, but i hated the god pass variation, giant flash, alot of movement, but suddenly i was able to do the normal pass because i practiced the god pass, i cant explain it, it just works, fast forward to now and im pretty sure i have the pass of my dreams...

Welp, thats all ive gathered up over the years, i DO have one slight problem with the pass, it makes noise, and i dont like that, ive tried everything for so long to stop it, i literally dont know if its possible, but *sigh*, thats another topic for another day :/

 

[Maaz Hasan]

I dont have time to read all of these and read everything because i gotta go, long story short:
I use a jiggle pass right after i close up a spread while the cards are messy:
-My right hand NEVER moves and grips the deck tightly
-My left hand is completely relaxed and i do the move relaxed
-Watch your shoulders, make sure they arent raised whenever u wanna perform
-Pinky, up to first joint, middle + ring, over top relaxed, index, on side for stabilisation
-The left pinky does more than half of the work, only after it completely clears my fingers curl a tiny bit to square up the deck faster

When i was starting magic i was doing the pass for well over a year and i couldnt even do the move, untill i watched the god pass video, i could do it instantly, but i hated the god pass variation, giant flash, alot of movement, but suddenly i was able to do the normal pass because i practiced the god pass, i cant explain it, it just works, fast forward to now and im pretty sure i have the pass of my dreams...

Welp, thats all ive gathered up over the years, i DO have one slight problem with the pass, it makes noise, and i dont like that, ive tried everything for so long to stop it, i literally dont know if its possible, but *sigh*, thats another topic for another day :/

Great advice!

As for your problems, try tilting the right hand packet ever so slightly upwards from the right side. Or just do it slowly.

 

[VagueTheory]

The pass is only as useful/valuable as those who do or don't practice it. To each their own, for sure.

Do any one of you guys happen to be musicians? I view the pass as a scale. Growing up, I practiced scales mindlessly (because my teacher told me to), not knowing what they were truly useful for. When I finally went to school for music, I practiced them so much I hated them.

But in the end, the scale is the building block of all songs. In music, 12 major and 12 minor (each with three variations) exist. Will musicians ever use them all? Not at once, but when time comes, we do! Same for a pass. Learn it. Master it. There will be a time you will find it more suitable than any other control.

Now, let me address the issues that you brought up?

"1. ....Often when I pull the packet to the side at the start of the pass I find that it gets caught on the fingers of my right hand. Have any of you had these issues? If so how did you solve them?"

I've been practice the classic pass and its variations for well over a decade and still somewhat remember when I had this problem as well (and I have pretty big hands). Could it be that you are gripping the deck with your right hand too deep? The front edge of the deck shouldn't be held further than the second "joints" or "folds" of your right fingers. Kind of hard to explain through text. If you're willing to upload a video of you practicing, it'd help us a lot.

"2. I find that the flash on this pass is MASSIVE. To be fair I am quite certain that this is a practice makes perfect and you're going to have to build speed deal, but when I get the pack out to the right it just seems like a blind man could see the packet, you know? Is my covering right too far over of the deck or is this why all the books I'm working with call for distractions with the pass?"

If your pass isn't smooth yet, do not worry about angles yet. Think about it as learning how to "crawl before you walk." When you get the hang of the basic mechanics, the angles will almost naturally get better through muscle memory and then you'll be able to adjust accordingly.

"3. For the life of me I can't get my left thumb to lie naturally along the long side of the deck while I practice. I'm contemplating gluing it to the cards its so frustrating for me. Naturally my thumb wants to be up against the middle joint of my right index finger when I'm passing. Is this going to be a problem in the long run?"

This is something that I've just recently been working on. It's a preference and it will not affect you negatively in the long run. I don't find that lying the thumb along the long side of the deck to feel natural, but I think with the thumb out of the way, it may lead to the top portion to clear faster. For now, I suggest not doing it because it really isn't natural. If you're ever interested, I'll let you know how it affects how I do the pass because I plan on practicing it like this for a bit.

"4. Finally, do you move your right hand? I'm still so bad at the classic pass that I'm lucky if my cards make it out in one packet by the end, but I find that if I don't move the right the packets slide against one another making a ton of noise. Then again if I do move the right I'm worried that I'll call a ton of attention to the move. I know that I can riffle or jiggle pass to lower suspicion, but is that the only option?"

Yes. I do, anyway. I curl my fingertips in a bit to help bring the bottom packet to the top. Depending on the situation, I may even rotate my right hand forward (fingers towards the floor) to get some more cover. As for the noise, I personally strive to not have both packets touch when executing the move. I say that because of my understanding of physics. More friction is created when two solids touch and therefore will create noise and drag, making your pass slow. If you can get the two packets to clear without touching, it'll be frictionless and therefore faster. Some people have told me that the packets travel farther when they don't touch, but I'd rather work a wee bit harder and make less noise than the opposite.

I hope this helps man. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[GKID]

Great advice!

As for your problems, try tilting the right hand packet ever so slightly upwards from the right side. Or just do it slowly.

You have no idea how many extremely old threads ive viewed here, its so simple, i was so stupid, look them in the eye and you can do the pass as slow as you want, the only time you should do the pass fast (if noiseless), is doing the jiggle pass after a spread close OR doing a color change, Asad's dribble pass is great for that, and one last tip for the guy that made this thread, the pass can be used as a production, force, control, color change, the limitations are nearly endless, i rest my case...

Ill try out your advice literally right now, thanks bro

 

[FunkyBottoms]

My advice is to spend your time learning other sleights that are more useful than the classic pass. I know of very few routines that actually use the classic pass.

Ahhh, but at the table tis a glorious and useful deception...

The pass is only as useful/valuable as those who do or don't practice it. To each their own, for sure.

Do any one of you guys happen to be musicians? I view the pass as a scale. Growing up, I practiced scales mindlessly (because my teacher told me to), not knowing what they were truly useful for. When I finally went to school for music, I practiced them so much I hated them.

But in the end, the scale is the building block of all songs. In music, 12 major and 12 minor (each with three variations) exist. Will musicians ever use them all? Not at once, but when time comes, we do! Same for a pass. Learn it. Master it. There will be a time you will find it more suitable than any other control.

Now, let me address the issues that you brought up?

"1. ....Often when I pull the packet to the side at the start of the pass I find that it gets caught on the fingers of my right hand. Have any of you had these issues? If so how did you solve them?"

I've been practice the classic pass and its variations for well over a decade and still somewhat remember when I had this problem as well (and I have pretty big hands). Could it be that you are gripping the deck with your right hand too deep? The front edge of the deck shouldn't be held further than the second "joints" or "folds" of your right fingers. Kind of hard to explain through text. If you're willing to upload a video of you practicing, it'd help us a lot.

"2. I find that the flash on this pass is MASSIVE. To be fair I am quite certain that this is a practice makes perfect and you're going to have to build speed deal, but when I get the pack out to the right it just seems like a blind man could see the packet, you know? Is my covering right too far over of the deck or is this why all the books I'm working with call for distractions with the pass?"

If your pass isn't smooth yet, do not worry about angles yet. Think about it as learning how to "crawl before you walk." When you get the hang of the basic mechanics, the angles will almost naturally get better through muscle memory and then you'll be able to adjust accordingly.

"3. For the life of me I can't get my left thumb to lie naturally along the long side of the deck while I practice. I'm contemplating gluing it to the cards its so frustrating for me. Naturally my thumb wants to be up against the middle joint of my right index finger when I'm passing. Is this going to be a problem in the long run?"

This is something that I've just recently been working on. It's a preference and it will not affect you negatively in the long run. I don't find that lying the thumb along the long side of the deck to feel natural, but I think with the thumb out of the way, it may lead to the top portion to clear faster. For now, I suggest not doing it because it really isn't natural. If you're ever interested, I'll let you know how it affects how I do the pass because I plan on practicing it like this for a bit.

"4. Finally, do you move your right hand? I'm still so bad at the classic pass that I'm lucky if my cards make it out in one packet by the end, but I find that if I don't move the right the packets slide against one another making a ton of noise. Then again if I do move the right I'm worried that I'll call a ton of attention to the move. I know that I can riffle or jiggle pass to lower suspicion, but is that the only option?"

Yes. I do, anyway. I curl my fingertips in a bit to help bring the bottom packet to the top. Depending on the situation, I may even rotate my right hand forward (fingers towards the floor) to get some more cover. As for the noise, I personally strive to not have both packets touch when executing the move. I say that because of my understanding of physics. More friction is created when two solids touch and therefore will create noise and drag, making your pass slow. If you can get the two packets to clear without touching, it'll be frictionless and therefore faster. Some people have told me that the packets travel farther when they don't touch, but I'd rather work a wee bit harder and make less noise than the opposite.

I hope this helps man. Let me know if you have any questions.

Musician here. . MAN I hated running scales, but your analogy is spot on. Can't learn modes without learning scales. Can't improvise (well) if you don't know scales and modes, etc.

Good advice all around in this post.

Context is key in how hard one should work on the pass, and as a few notables here have mentioned, it's all about context.

I'd offer one word to imply a particularly important context for some (perhaps only a few) of us who find a clean quick classic pass done well an important tool:

Nullification.

Jason England does an amazing job in his Foundations work on the classic pass. He presents it well, but because it's Jason, he always takes it further by providing a full resource guide at the end of most if not all of his tuts. Some that I recall at the moment are:

Krenzel doing the classic pass with Oulette hosting is amazing, I forget what it's called now. Buy Mr. England's Classic Pass tut for the deets.

Hoffman's "...on the Pass" is well worth the $40 DVD. Amazon.

Vol 1 of Tarbell has some great info, as does Card College on the classic pass.

I don't recall Jason mentioning this is the CP tut, but Steve Forte has probably the most beautiful burning of a classic pass I've ever seen for that type of work. Absolutely gorgeous execution. Avail yourself of his Gambling Protection series, it's worth every single penny, even if a bit dated.

When it comes to performing magic and not table work, I agree with the others and strongly recommend other card controls before committing the time on the classic pass, so many more efficient and context-relevant controls to be used and far more effective. You can always continue to learn it, but don't dwell on it....yet

FB

 

[VagueTheory]

FunkyBottom, nice to meet another musician on here. Just wanted to clarify, I think you mean Richard Kaufman's "On The Pass," and not Hoffman.

 

[FunkyBottoms]

FunkyBottom, nice to meet another musician on here. Just wanted to clarify, I think you mean Richard Kaufman's "On The Pass," and not Hoffman.

Likewise, and you're 100% correct, sorry for the mix-up and nice save. My brain was stew and it was late when I wrote that. If you want I can find the name of the Krenzel pass vid as well, been a long time since I viewed Jason's excellent CP tut, but he lists amazing written and vid references that are WELL worth finding if you don't already have them.

I also meant to mention that at the end of Jason's CP tut he spends a minute or two really going into detail on variations of grip, hand position, etc to try as he's well aware he has larger hands. OK, huge hands. But man, that man can burn a pass 8 ways to Sunday and teaches the core and covers so well. One of my top modern card heroes to be sure and a fantastic teacher. Those subtleties he shows and things he suggests trying seem to be right up your alley regarding the original post. Lastly, Steve Forte....good lord he needs a third mention, normal hands and without question one of the best cleanest classic pass masters out there. It's difficult to catch him even on camera it's so quick and smooth. Jealousy abounds, but I'm damn close. I'm damn old too.

My personal OneTip would be to practice for smooth, for clean, for undetectable motion. Work on speed later, much later, as well as cover moves. Just get your transposition technique solid and consistent, and then speed will come. "The Death Triangle" will be a thing of the past and they won't even see you coming.

Best of luck to you,

FB

 

[KaviruG]

but if you really want to learn the pass download Jason England tutorial he even shows you some really good covers for this slight
James

Not really. I've bought his product. No offence to Jason England, who is a really prominent figure in the magic industry, cardsharps especially, but the amount of instruction he gives is more or less the same you'd learn from Royal Road to Card Magic, spending only around 3 minutes for instruction. A YouTube tutorial (not promoting learning tricks from YouTube) would be thrice as long as that. Sure, he goes over the riffle pass, jiggle pass and dribble pass and such, but not too much of an explanation is given. He doesn't go over angles at all. In fact, he himself says that his tutorial should only be used as foundation.
I can't personally vouch for Xavior Spade's Pass Project, but I've been hearing good word about it.

 

[Karo-K54]

Not really. I've bought his product. No offence to Jason England, who is a really prominent figure in the magic industry, cardsharps especially, but the amount of instruction he gives is more or less the same you'd learn from Royal Road to Card Magic, spending only around 3 minutes for instruction.

He does spend a few minutes on the uses of the classic pass, but yeah, the actual instruction given for the classic pass is not extremely detailed. The entire video is thirty minutes long, and most of it goes to explaining the history of the pass and other resources to learning the classic pass. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the product isn't worth it, but I would say that the price should be much less than $9.95 for such little instruction.