Does Coin Magic...

[Jitty]

Okay, I want to respond to Firmz and the very first post:

Firmz:
First, I want to define magic.

magic |ˈmajik|
the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Great, so magic is the power of influencing events by using supernatural powers. Now, let's define supernatural:

supernatural |ˌsoōpərˈna ch (ə)rəl|
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature

In other words, the very definition of magic is something that is beyond scientific understanding. Therefore, magic does not make sense. The one thing that really annoyed me about this thread is when people say that magic needs to make sense. The truth is that it doesn't. The other question that is doesn't make very much sense is "If I could do real magic, what would I do?" My answer to that is "I would be doing much more meaningful things than showing off my powers, that's for sure." I'm not attacking you, Firmz, I'm just trying to show the fault in your argument. You presented a scenario, let me present one.
Scenario: You're standing in front of a crowd of 30 very important people. You are at a party, and you are being paid to perform.
What would you do?
Nothing makes logical sense in this situation, so the only other option is to do something illogical. Magic.
If you are trying to present to people logical magic, you are going to have a very hard time. But if you are trying to show people logical presentational angles, that makes your job much easier. For example, I believe that Morgician used the example: Spectator: "Wow, I'm hungry." Magician: (Produces a ham sandwich) "Here's a ham sandwich." Now, producing a ham sandwich on it's own makes no logical sense at all. That's the magic part. But producing it when someone says they're hungry, that's the presentation part.
Now, I'm just going to respond to the first part of the first post:

(Magician) I can make 3 coins go from my left into my right hand. (Audience) so can I. (Magician) Yeah, but I can do it so you can’t see it happen. (Audience) whoopee? So, the effect is you can make coins travel invisibly a short distance?

The above is a quote from Morgician, in the very first post. Now, I'm sorry Morgician, but this makes no sense. You can apply this to many close-up classics. For example:
Magician: I can put this ball under this cup and make it appear under this other cup. Spectator: So can I. Magician: Yeah, but I can do it invisibly.
Here's another one:
Magician: I can change this card into another card. Spectator: So can I. Magician: Yeah, but I can do it invisibly.
And another:
Magician: I can make this rubber band appear on the other side of this rubber band, while holding this one. Spectator: So can I. Magician: Yeah, but I can do it invisibly.
I'm sure you get the point.
While I don't agree with the first part of your post, Morgician, I do agree with the second. Coming up with logical presentational angles is a job that needs to be done to make our magic stronger.
By the way, making coins travel a short distance invisibly sounds like an impressive feat to me.
Again, if anybody took the time to read this, thanks.

Jitty

 

[Chicken]

Presentational Angles and Logical Performances are both "enhancers" on your everyday routine. ANY routine can be given a presentation angle. Not all routines can be given a logical explanation that does not sound overly convoluted. Therin lies the challenge.
Back to the ham-sandwich theory. If you say "hey, anybody hungry? Yeah? BAM " and produce a ham sandwich, there is momentary suspention of belief. i believe that to truly connect with an audience, you must tell them that you are going to do magic. Logical motivation? Give that after the audience decides to watch you, or you'll be a guy on the streets producing ham sandwiches for himself.

 

[Nate Malini]

even if no one in the room knows you, after your first miracle they're going to know your a magician and start to expect the unexpected. so that first trick has to be the bam ham sandwich thing.
OK enough with the sandwich, that first effect is the only place to insert any kind of logical magic with coins....I think....right?

 

[Chicken]

... but if nobody in the room knows that you are a magician, they aren't even going to be looking at you when you BAM ham sandwich!
So your first thing should be to attract attention to yourself by escaping from several pairs of shackles, handcuffs, and ropes, while being slowly lowered into a pit of sharks! (Just kidding.)


By the way- has BAM Ham Sandwich become a verb?

 

[Nate Malini]

hey chicken in the finer restaurants they have big lobster tanks in the dinning room....something to think about.


How about coin matrix with four quarters and two of those scratch off lottery game cards? or a one coin one scratch off game card routine. at the end coins can pour out of the game card jackpot style.

some one once told me never do "Big" money tricks when table hopping for tips. it shows you don't really need money if you can make it your self.

 

[Sleight_of_Hand]

I think Jitty just owned MOrg. with his defenition... LOL

 

[Morgan B]

Deleted today

 

[Jitty]

Morgician,
I believe you misread my post. I am saying that logical magic does not exist, but logical presentational ideas do exist. I never said that magic would not be stronger with a logical presentation behind it. I am trying to say that the magic itself is not logical, but the way you present it can be logical. There is a difference, and it bothers me when people don't realize it. That's all I'm saying.
Here is a quote from Firmz:

Notice how these effects have logical reasoning as opposed to a presentational angle (the coin bends because its counterfeit, thats how you test it) Or would you argue that what i have suggested here are also presentational angles?

I am arguing exactly that.
On another note, I apologize for the second part of my post. I misread your original post.

Jitty

 

[Nate Malini]

it was a rule more for busking, Standing on a street corner with a bucket for tips as you did 4 to 5 routines, the guy i used to follow around Manhattan learning what was called back then(18 years ago or so) "Street magic" was named "Chappy Brazil", Great entertainer and magician (thats two different skills).

his rule was."Never do the hundred dollar bill switch" when busking.

I know there's no real test to see if the same audience would have given you a five dollar bill instead of a one after seeing you change a dollar into a hundred. but i rather tear up there 10 dollar bill then restore it . getting them to drop it in the bucket afterwords was funny to watch as he did a "do as i do" routine at the end throwing his 10 dollars in his bucket and the look on the guys face as he realize he has to do the same was great. it really was 8 out of ten times they would. But you had to be Entertaining for it to work. As for table hopping your right thats a whole other ball game.

 

[Jack The Magician]

Guys,

Just a quick reminder that we do have forum rules that need to be adhered to. There is no need for some of the disrespect and back-and-forth bashing that has occurred intermittently throughout this thread.

I'm going to leave this thread open for now -- but any further hostility or disrespectful personal attacks and posts will cause this thread to be closed. Furthermore, if any questions, comments, or concerns arise about any post or thread, don't hesitate to contact me or another moderator -- or hit the Report-a-Post button.

For now, let's take a step back, and return to a respectful, courteous, and civil discussion.

Thanks,

 

[Chicken]

Wait- you knew Chappy Brazil, master of the watch steal?

David Stone gives the advice to USE bill switches to allude to money in a more subtle way.
Telling a story is NOT a logical reason to do something, unless you are a storyteller! (which i am.)

 

[Morgan B]

Moved on today

 

[Jitty]

We're cool, Morgician. I'm glad I cleared things up. I'll try to read more of the thread so I don't bring up any more repetitive concepts or ideas.

Jitty

 

[Nate Malini]

Wait- you knew Chappy Brazil, master of the watch steal?

David Stone gives the advice to USE bill switches to allude to money in a more subtle way.
Telling a story is NOT a logical reason to do something, unless you are a storyteller! (which i am.)

Yea i did? small world .It's him i learned the watch steal,cigarette magic, heckler management(more then just come backs) and street performance from. how did you know him? I was in charge of keeping an eye on the tip bucket when i was 18 every weekend(An important job in New York City). after he got a good size group i was allowed to do a quick trick or two to get my nerves up. another time a man yelled out "My Watch is gone,i had a ______watch on and now its gone!" Chappy never touched the guy but was sued by this guy who without a question must have seen Chappy's act before. sad but true Chappy lost. if you knew him you must know me ,did you go to Tannens magic shop a lot? small world chicken. sad that he died in that car crash. he was my friend. I still have an invention of his that was to dangerous for the public.


How about Coin that ends up Between a single scratch card..you know like it gets trap from scratching it to hard with the coin? instead of using a business card and coin. maybe not.

 

[Chicken]

I'm sorry, i never knew chappy brazil personally. I only know about him because of his fame in the world of pickpockets. I only Sad, sad, death.

About the scratch card- you mean like splitting a card, putting a coin inside, putting the card back together, and handing out "a coin stuck inside a scratch card?"

 

[Nate Malini]

I'm sorry, i never knew chappy Brazil personally. I only know about him because of his fame in the world of pickpockets. I only Sad, sad, death.

About the scratch card- you mean like splitting a card, putting a coin inside, putting the card back together, and handing out "a coin stuck inside a scratch card?"

Chappy became known? any books on him? i thought all this time the lessons i got from "Trailing" him were exclusive. I have a old hand blow torch that belonged to him. 3-4 foot flame from the hand.crazy dangerous,i love it.



I know the coin in card is a singed coin but yea thats what i was thinking. maybe in a coin matrix with two scratch lottery cards the last coin that travels doesn't end up under the card with the other 3 coins but instead inside that card...you know?

 

[Chicken]

Chappy Brazil's video on the watch steal is considered THE introductory video into the watch steal, but thats another thread.

 

[Nate Malini]

Chappy Brazil's video on the watch steal is considered THE introductory video into the watch steal, but thats another thread.

wow thanks man.........what are we going to leave behind? (I know thats another thread)

 

[Morgan B]

Hi guys - a few things.

First, I learnt the watch steal from Chappy's video tapes too - it was tragic that he passed so young. Very talented, and if you spent time with him Nate - you are better off for it. I have onliy heard good about him.

Second, I am leaving this thread behind - I deleted all my arguments minus my first one - for two reasons - I had to continually reargue the same points - I got bitter doing it - progress was slow - and much mud was slung by me. The mud came at frustration to off topic replies and attacks of my qualifications...again and again. Therefore, I hope those that took the time to read learnt, will think more about what they do - perhaps creating new standards for themselves.

I just want to recap the issues - first, there is a major gap in coin magic...in technique/methods, presentations, and motivated effects. Coin magic is very strong - as vanishing something creates a strong reaction, but the impact is loftened essened by methods and props. Also, we trivialize it by doing it so fast or having multiple effects happen so close together. We need to hold the same high standards to what we deliver, regardless of the prop/medium.

Anyhow, in short - I hope you read my first post and understand I wrote it so we could make magic grow - because these issues plague much of magic that are not coins, but coins seem to be the second most popular in magic today - as we don't have seperate threads for linking rings, rubber bands or sponges, right?

For all those that contributed, and continue to contribute to this thread - thanks - hope you find some solutions. I will have an eye on this thread, but am moving on to write my next controversial post.

Good luck in magic. For all those that PM'd me with kind words, or posted supportive comments on this thread - thanks.

 

[Chicken]

Morgician- you have done more for the coin magic forum than anyone.

Moderators, I believe this thread can be closed now.