Does flourishing kill card magic?

[RDChopper]

good point, very well put.

Good point?

In other words, JEN just said "Show skill and be super fast with your hands, people will not catch you anyway".

People CAN believe in magic, is our work to find out how, if you haven't had succes doing that, I suggest you guys try harder.

 

[jok3r]

Good point?

In other words, JEN just said "Show skill and be super fast with your hands, people will not catch you anyway".

People CAN believe in magic, is our work to find out how, if you haven't had succes doing that, I suggest you guys try harder.

ha ok, i like how you said something completely different then what he said

 

[visualartist]

I've read magic books that say otherwise. Usually people assume magicians are people with fast hands anyways... most people realize that there is no such thing as real magic, so I think that point is mute. Flourishing adds a lot to magic. It shows that you're a master of your class and it disarms the spectator, whereas before they might assume you're just an amature. When they realize you're a master of your class, they won't even attempt to burn your hands to figure out your tricks, because they realize they won't be able to.

There are books on magic that condone busting out a sybil in a card effect?
I havent seen a magic book published in recent years at all.And i mean a real book not PDF.
If you mean flourishes like springs then yeah itll work well with your card tricks.
Obvously you should look like you handled cards before unless your character calls otherwise.
I really really try to do away with the idea of fast hands because it distracts laymen from the magic aspect. Its the trouble with performing solely card tricks and "pick a card" theme tricks. Its ugh.
If I make a card bleed then the laymen stop bothering their minds with thinking about the card trick like a puzzle,then they can truly enjoy the magic.

 

[RDChopper]

ha ok, i like how you said something completely different then what he said

When they realize you're a master of your class, they won't even attempt to burn your hands to figure out your tricks, because they realize they won't be able to.

"Show skill and be super fast with your hands, people will not catch you anyway"..

I do believe that I said the exact same thing but with other words.

 

[praetoritevong]

Obviously RD is not quoting JEN verbatim. But I think for his purposes it's a reasonably accurate paraphrase.

 

[Morgan B]

The question is – or should be – what is the impact to the audience if you decide to flourish?

I was at an amusement park with half a dozen friends, which also happen to be very talented magicians. So, for certain while we waited in line for our rides, we were jamming…or at least playing with our cards. At one point, one of my friends was playing with his deck, flourishing, and she said, “Are you guys magicians” – in which we said yes. She asked if we could show her a trick. So…for his protection, I will call him Flourishy Magee, so Flourishy Magee did an ACR, but all the revelations and controls were done with flourishes. She looked at him at each “magical” moment, with no expression. She just said, “neat” – then a more experienced magician took his deck…and did an ACR…with standard methods that looked like no sleight of hand – she freaked out…big time, stating, “that is impossible”.

So – I learnt something that day. If you can manipulate a deck showing skill with flourishes…well, the impossible doesn’t seem so impossible! I mean, look what you can do with cards…how would finding one or bringing it to the top be impressive? Especially when you just tipped your hand to show your ability to manipulate cards!

So does that mean no flourishes…ever!?

I don’t think this is an all or nothing situation. I find flourishes, or a visual moment in magic, can be a great way to get attention during your routine. I have found it a great way to start a routine, but then used implied methods that allow the magic to happen in the audiences mind, after that. In short, catch their eye, then capture their brain. I also think that if the flourish is used sparingly, and not during the moment of magic, you may be able to leave the impression of skill…but not skilful manipulation. There is a difference.

For example – if I produce a card from the deck to find a card – that is skilful manipulation – however, if I find the wrong card…then it changes in my hand (via top change) this could show skill, but not impact the magic.

So I think what it comes down to is this – do you want people to suspend their disbelief for a few moments and see magic, despite their logical mind saying “you don’t have magic powers” but all evidence they can see says there is no other method?!

OR

Do you want to be seen as a skilful entertainer that uses his ability to manipulate cards in a non-magical way that confuses people – or the out of – YOU HAVE FAST HANDS…which is NOT a compliment, as far as I am concerned, but an out for the spectators to grasp on the question, “how you did that”?

Strong magic appears moveless at its best – flourishes are an art of their own, but are contrary to this approach. So if you want to fool people with magic, and not speed, I would think you would be careful about flourishes…or be Flourishy Magee…because honestly, I would LOVE to follow any table you worked. It would make my job easier.

 

[JetEyeNight]

There are books on magic that condone busting out a sybil in a card effect?
I havent seen a magic book published in recent years at all.And i mean a real book not PDF.
If you mean flourishes like springs then yeah itll work well with your card tricks.
Obvously you should look like you handled cards before unless your character calls otherwise.
I really really try to do away with the idea of fast hands because it distracts laymen from the magic aspect. Its the trouble with performing solely card tricks and "pick a card" theme tricks. Its ugh.
If I make a card bleed then the laymen stop bothering their minds with thinking about the card trick like a puzzle,then they can truly enjoy the magic.

Good point?

In other words, JEN just said "Show skill and be super fast with your hands, people will not catch you anyway".

People CAN believe in magic, is our work to find out how, if you haven't had succes doing that, I suggest you guys try harder.

When did flourishing mean busting out a Sybil? I'm not talking about those types of flourishes (even though Daniel Madison busted out Sybils and other fancy cuts, several times throughout his performances on the Mystic DVD in Dangerous, and yet, contrary to what you guys are saying, people were flipping-out, screaming and amazed.) There's a difference between being superfast with your hands and someone thinking you have "fast hands". Someone thinking you have "fast hands" doesn't neccessarily mean that you visibly moved your hands fast. This phrase has been used for years to describe someone using sleight of hand. Even though their hands don't move fast, they are considered to have "fast hands". This is what I mean when I say people will assume you have "fast hands", so why look like an amature, when you can look like a pro? And yes, there is a REAL book that condones flourishing, and enourages it.

I'm not talking about whipping out a pandora, but using flourishes that fit with your magic, and make sense. Slow displays of fans, charlier cuts and other one handed cuts, springs, dribbles, card flicks, aireals. It's entertaining and these types of flourishes enhance magic, as they are magical movements. 2-handed cuts and such generally don't fit well with routining most tricks... We need to be specific when we talk about flourishing and magic. You guys seemed to be clumping all flourishing together when there are many types, some of which work well with magic, and some that don't. To have no flourishing at all in your magic, IMO, puts you at a disadvantage.

 

[KeoSilver]

He is talking flourishing, not cardistry, I get it now.

 

[visualartist]

When did flourishing mean busting out a Sybil? I'm not talking about those types of flourishes (even though Daniel Madison busted out Sybils and other fancy cuts, several times throughout his performances on the Mystic DVD in Dangerous, and yet, contrary to what you guys are saying, people were flipping-out, screaming and amazed.) There's a difference between being superfast with your hands and someone thinking you have "fast hands". Someone thinking you have "fast hands" doesn't neccessarily mean that you visibly moved your hands fast. This phrase has been used for years to describe someone using sleight of hand. Even though their hands don't move fast, they are considered to have "fast hands". This is what I mean when I say people will assume you have "fast hands", so why look like an amature, when you can look like a pro? And yes, there is a REAL book that condones flourishing, and enourages it.

I'm not talking about whipping out a pandora, but using flourishes that fit with your magic, and make sense. Slow displays of fans, charlier cuts and other one handed cuts, springs, dribbles, card flicks, aireals. It's entertaining and these types of flourishes enhance magic, as they are magical movements. 2-handed cuts and such generally don't fit well with routining most tricks... We need to be specific when we talk about flourishing and magic. You guys seemed to be clumping all flourishing together when there are many types, some of which work well with magic, and some that don't. To have no flourishing at all in your magic, IMO, puts you at a disadvantage.

Well on the post where you first quoted me I WAS talking only about sybils and XCM type card manipulation.Not flourishes

(even though Daniel Madison busted out Sybils and other fancy cuts, several times throughout his performances on the Mystic DVD in Dangerous, and yet, contrary to what you guys are saying, people were flipping-out, screaming and amazed.)
.

no they werent dude.
During his displays of skill(which happened twice at most) he got "ooh wow,so fast" in low voices.His cardistry did not cause the "flipping" out and screams.

It's entertaining and these types of flourishes enhance magic, as they are magical movements
.

If all you do is card magic then yes. Even so,if im doing seance magic/making a card float/freezing ice around a card,etc a flourish(or sybils like so many people do now instead of subtle flourishes) in the middle of that would kill the mood and character.

To have no flourishing at all in your magic, IMO, puts you at a disadvantage.

Making it seem like sleight of hand is out of the picture,adds power to the experience. No disadvantage there.

 

[Nikhil Kumar]

Hey man, you got to do what you think.. not what other people think...

When I perform, I do include some flourishes but nothing major, just basic cuts to retain the order of the deck but it also depends on what you want people to beleive about you..

do you really want them to think that what you are doing is real Magic? I certainly don't because I dont want to make my self look superior, I think that flourishing goes well to the style of the trick, its like an extra dazzle to the effect,

do what your heart tells you to do and not what other people tell you,

Nik.

 

[[R.C]]

Personally, I present it as skill with cards and sleight of hand. Not real magic. If the spectator wants to believe real magic I don't dissuade them or enforce it. For my style and personality, it fits me a lot better to seems experienced with cards as opposed to creating real life magic.

 

[jok3r]

Ok, i think small flourishes to help your magic. like JET said it establishes credability.

I was performing today, and i focused on not doing any real fourishes. I just did a waterfall, lepaul spread, and a spring. The ladies i was performing for still said, "thats amazing, and he handles the cards so well"
I made an effort to focus on flourishing, do to all the reecent threads about this subject.

 

[visualartist]

said, "thats amazing, and he handles the cards so well"
.

Thats what you want if your going to use flourishes or a bit of cardistry.
You dont want people to say "well if he can do that with cards,then he can do anything".
You want the flourish to compliment the magic,not replace it.
Which unfortunately I see done in most "street magic" videos these days.

 

[visualartist]

Hey man, you got to do what you think.. not what other people think...


do what your heart tells you to do and not what other people tell you,

Nik.

A fool takes everyones advice.A bigger fool takes none.

You cant disregard everyone and do only what "your heart" tells you.
There is a median in this.

 

[avihoffmanmagic]

You guys are all right in one way or another, there is nothing wrong with flourishing while you do magic. But lets say you are doing an ACR, and you use a perfect riffle shuffle and bridge. Or you use an extremely sloppy overhand shuffle and drop a couple cards. Which do you think will concince the spectator more that the card is truly lost in the deck? That is going beyond just "busting out a sybil". If you show people things that they regularly see experts do on TV, they are more likely to not trust you. But if you come on to a more "layman" level, they are more likely to trust you. Another problem with Dan and Dave's magic that I didnt mention yet is that they use double lifts and like moves that no normal person in their right mind would ever use. For instant, the move they use in Tivo 2.0 is just so untrustworthy. Would you trust a magician who used a move like that(if you were a layman)? A double lift should look as close to how a layman would pick up a single card as possible. But dont get me wrong. I have nothing against the Buck twins. I think they are extremely innovative but unnatural in their magic. Just my oppinion.

 

[Morgan B]

I just want to make one comment.

A few of you mentioned the audience thinking it was "real magic" - however, this is an odd contridiction of terms to say the least...this isn't a logistics argument, but "real magic"?

Here is the thing - real magic isn't making people believe you have "real magic powers", however, real magic in an artistic form is forcing the audience to question what they know is true, because no other explantion is available. If you are using skill or flourishes of any kind...then you are a card juggler, not a magician.

Why must we discuss strong magic, as a childish image of a guy waving a wand and chanting spells, looking like a nerd. Darren Brown gives the impression of real magic, before he lets people off the hook by saying it is "mind control" or whatever he decides to do character wise.

Too many of us are giving in to modern thinking on magic, and not enough of you are saying - magic can appear real, although we know it is not...this is the illusion of magic. Before you all knew what double lifts and passes were...you saw magic and it fooled you. It made you question your senses? You experienced what magic WOULD look like, if it were real - this is your job as a magician - to fool - at a basic level.

It is so apparent what little theory and understanding exists in these forums when discussing magic and what an intelligent modern approach is in sustaining the art! Go do flourishes...then you can take credit for all the sleight of hand you do too?! What ever happened to creating the feeling of magic, the experience of the impossible? Oh yeah...it is much easier just to show off and tip your hand to the audiences, then it is to conceal skill and create an entertaining and memorable experience.

Continue to do what you are doing - you will impress people, but you will never leave an impression....but don't take my word for it, test it out for yourself, or be smart enough to see the error in presenting magic as skill - afterall, It is necessary for us to learn from others' mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself.

So - good luck coping out because you don't want people to think your magic is "real", but truthfully, I am not sure you could even do that if you tried!? I think it would be too much for many of you to put down flourishes and make your magic look like magic would look.

Think of the greats - the really great magicians - how many rely on flourishes?

 

[Ineski]

Hats off to Morgician! That might have just been the best post I've ever read on these forums.

I really hope people will read that carefully - multiple times. Seriously.

 

[krazykards]

i agree, morgician nailed it.

the real awe of magic and especially sleight of hand magic, is to make the illusions look simple and straight forward. you want people to think that NOTHING has happened when you are already steps ahead.

The problem with flourishing during magic is that the audience will attribute what they have seen to skill and speed. no matter how impossible the effect or invisible the sleight, if they know you have skills with card manipulation, they will turn to "fast hands" as the only answer and that ruins the illusion and mystery.

as morgician said, try it for yourself. learn an effect that is straight forward and elegent, with no fancy moves and only hidden and indetectable sleights, and see the reactions you get when you pull the card out of an impossible location.

then do the same effect for a different group, but start with some flourishes first and see what kind of reactions people give you. Like morgician said, they will be technically impressed with your skills, but you wont leave a magical impression.

 

[calledcrazy]

Honestly, I do flourishes for hecklers, they can't very well argue "You suck, i know how you did that!". I enjoy showing people flourishes, I enjoy even more showing them a trick, so I do more magic than flourishing.

 

[visualartist]

I hear that alot from people.
That when a heckler arises they flourish.
But what the hell does that prove or say to them? Honestly,I want to know.