Ellusionist - Losing Touch?

[Jakeh]

Are you serious. That was one of the first tricks I learned. You guys are complaining about E teaching this trick. Oh i won't put the link to the site because it's exposure. These type of tricks won'y hurt any of our performences.

True, but what if they begin to teach other things, such as a DL or something like that?

 

[darosa.justin]

I must admit, that what Ellusionist ahs been doing ever since their launch has been VERY business-minded...Which isn't saying that is a bad thing.

However, from us, magicians, point of view, what they have become now is quite un-ethical, about that 'link'.
But who wouldn't do this? Ellusionist is a magic product BUSINESS, and one of the best ways to boost sales is to sponsor a show, and get attention to their site.

However, I do believe that they are losing touch, especially since the alunch of Theory11. With a lot of their big names gone, Wayne Houchin, Dana Hocking, J. Bayme, they really don't have much left.

However, I do still believe that they are the leading innovative magic 'training facility', although it looks like they will be taken over by Theory11 soon.

No doubt they wil stay very stong though..

 

[PlethZorb]

Yes, E are losing their touch. Sub-standard products (except decks) and too much appeal to the general public is the cause.

 

[Daugava]

Yeah they are losing their touch, but they are still making lots of money. Ultragaff, Ghost deck and Celebracadarba..

 

[Steerpike]

You condone E (or a pirateer in disguise, I'm not sure) for exposing on the side? They kept telling everyone that there will be absolutely no exposure on the show but they're gonna allow commercials that will reveal secrets to magic? What a contradiction...

Oh, so now teaching magic is exposure? What in the name of Roger Corman do we have to do to learn magic in a safe manner that you lot would approve of? Steal each other's secrets? I'm sure Harry Kellar would be proud.

Everyone needs to know that they should just stick with a couple items and they will be fine.

I think people take that way too literally.

Its true. What you find in a E dvd is something you would find in Card College, or other great classic books.

Shall I pass that along to Justin Miller, Danny Garcia, and Nathan Kranzo?

I don't see the point of creating custom decks and selling them unless those decks are meant for card collectors.

It's all a matter of style. I have the kind of persona and appearance to use custom cards effectively. Other people don't. It's arbitrary.

Also, XCMers love them. Black Tigers and Vipers are great for a manipulation routine.

True, but what if they begin to teach other things, such as a DL or something like that?

Then you start practicing again.

Am I the only magician here who isn't crapping his pants in fear of exposure? Granted, at this particular moment I would have to actually put on pants in order to crap them, but that's beside the point.

 

[Jakeh]

Then you start practicing again.

Practice has nothing to do with it if each time I turn over a card, it's "hey! you have two cards!" regardless of whether or not I have two.

 

[Steerpike]

Practice has nothing to do with it if each time I turn over a card, it's "hey! you have two cards!" regardless of whether or not I have two.

I didn't mean for you to practice your sleights.

 

[ThrallMind]

Practice has nothing to do with it if each time I turn over a card, it's "hey! you have two cards!" regardless of whether or not I have two.

As part of my biddle, I actually explain what palming is. Later on when I actually palm cards, I am never called out on it. Why? Because I know multiple ways to palm a card. Strangely enough, the same people who think if they figure out an effect, also believe if you show them something, that is the only way it can be done. Use it to your advantage, and find a different way to do a double that will make two cards seem impossible.

Or find a way to hand out the two cards as one. I've found that a slightly modified snap change (Or Commercial, for those of you who own the D&D Trilogy), will let you hand out the double as one, at least in their mind.

-ThrallMind

 

[Toby]

Everyone who is affraid they will lose their magic or something because of exposure, become a XCM-er or flourisher. There is no exposure, no gimic's (there's an idea), angle proof, you can do it surounded, etc...

I love E, and i dont want it to close, or "lose it's touch". Maybe they just went other direction, or expanded.

And all those "it's business, they are all about money" is geting on my nerves.
What about T11's 1on1's? "Crash Course 1(CC1)" is a 1 hour long video of beginners sleights and tricks and it cost 29$. And at T11 there is a "Card Fundamentals (CF)" wich are 5$ each, and for 10$ you learn overhand shuffle control and DL. So to accomplish the amount of sleight's and tricks on CC1, there would have to be at least couple more CF, and the price would come to 29$ or even higher.

Im not attacking T11 nor difending E, im just saying that they are not that different about being BUSINESS.

Edit: ThrallMind just reminded me of something... What about W:H exposing back palm to spectetors (in front of him, and those who own the DVD) in his Control DVD, on purpose?

 

[..:Z:..]

Oh, so now teaching magic is exposure? What in the name of Roger Corman do we have to do to learn magic in a safe manner that you lot would approve of? Steal each other's secrets? I'm sure Harry Kellar would be proud.

So, if I started teaching magic in that manner, you would be okay with it?

I'm confused, what is the difference between exposure and teaching-magic-for-free-to-strangers-over-on-the-internet-who-watches-Celebracadabra-and-is-not-interested-in-magic-but-wants-to-heckle-the-hell-out-of-the-local-magician-with-a-10-minute-video then? What, because Brad is the teacher, the trick involves the key-card principle only, and he's using a high-def camera?

Well, what if I was the teacher and I taught the pass with a cheezy, 10$ webcam over Youtube then? After all, my goal (and seemingly, most others on YouTube) is to teach, not to expose, right? So then I wouldn't be ridiculed for teaching magic even it is for free on a commonly known website such as Youtube, right?

Yah... That's what I thought.

And don't force me to look-up names, please. I'm not familiar with any of them; use some layman's terms

..:Z:..

 

[Steerpike]

Z, the problem here can be summed up in your last sentence. You don't think. You're not willing to do any amount of work for your own sake, you expect us to change to accomodate you.

Some of your message was cut off because as of my typing this, your giant hyphenated rant broke the tables, but I got the gist of it.

I would be cool if you started teaching magic well and your intention was to rotate new blood into the scene.

Your problem is made obvious in that you seem to believe everybody who watches Celebracadabra is your enemy. You're more paranoid than a pothead schizophrenic. You refuse to believe for even a nanosecond that your spectators are not out to get you.

And why? Because being a victim is much easier than reframing a situation and turning it into something positive.

You accuse me of only being cool with this because Brad Christian teaches it. However, by the same magnificently bad logic, I could make similar accusations about you. If you bought Control, you'd see that in one performance, Wayne exposes the back palm to his audience as the set-up for performing Paul Harris's Invisible Palm routine. If we're going to be absolutist about this sort of thing, then by your own logic you should stop supporting Wayne. But I know you won't, because you know as well as I do that it's a stupid idea.

But because Ellusionist is doing it, you go on the warpath. How is that any less stupid?

That's what you thought? No. You didn't think at all. You went with a knee-jerk reaction and tried to throw more wood on a fire that doesn't even exist.

 

[Brad Henderson]

There is a difference between teaching and exposure.

Let's say you came to me and asked how to saw someone in half. You do not own the props, not do you have access to the technical needs for performance (stage, etc.) If I were to tell you, that is exposure. No skill is communicated and that secret has been transmitted to someone who cannot benefit from the knowledge.

If, however, you come to me and say (truthfully), I just bought an Owen Thin Model Sawing and I was wondering if you would help me work out a routine. Then any information I gave to you would be teaching as you could take advantage of it.

Another issue, along with resources, is time. I will not teach something to a student if I cannot be sure that - in the time we have together - I cannot ensure at least a basic understanding and competency. If I were teaching a one hour beginner's class, for example, I would NEVER teach the double lift because 1) they will not reach a guaranteed level of competency in the time we have and 2) they will not reach a thorough understanding of the move and it's potential in the time we have. Likewise, I do not teach the key card because I do not think the student can leave understanding the true potential of that technique - which it is clear, many young magicians fail to see.

It is my responsibility as a teach to insure that I am teaching, not exposing.

Part of that is in the selection of material as detailed above, part of it comes in knowing the student. Is the student serious to use the information, or are the just a secret seeker. To give information to the secret seeker is exposure.

Unfortunately, in the online world, you cannot know who is serious and who is a secret seeker. While it is true that anyone can buy a book or DVD, at least that person is serious enough to pony up some money. While that is a very week measure as to their level of commitment, it still goes a lot further than the investment required to click on a website.

So, there are at least four elements that differentiate teaching from exposing.

1) Does the student have the resources (skills) to take advantage of the information.
2) Does the student have the experience/understanding to appreciate the information.
3) Can the teacher guarantee that the student will achieve a level of understanding and mastery (to at least a level of competency in the time they have together).
4) Is the student serious about the acquisition of that information and intends to put it to use as a performer, or student of magic, and not just the quelling of curiosity.

Thoughts?

Brad Henderson

 

[Dylan P.]

Intervention

Dear Readers,

I love the participation and I thank you for it. However, there is always a time where I must intervein and that time is now. I will just clarify everything for you guys that need more information.

The difference between exposure and teching tricks is this. Exposure is were anybody can learn magic at anytime for absolutely free. Being taught magic means that either you have an aproved mentor or have paid for DVD's and books. You also aren't just trying to learn the secret but you want to beccome a magician.

What E is doing on Celebracadabra is promoting how people can watch a free tutorial. This is exposure because everyne can get to it by typing in a URL and hitting play.

Now, the reason I say Ellusionist is losing it's touch is this. It seems to me that E has become increasingly desprate and trying to draw attention to themselves by having discounts and hosting a TV show. Prices have begun to drop on everything there. Also Brad Christan says he is against exposure...but how can we be certain if he reveals tricks for free to the public on that page.

Many people of Ellusionist have began to leave and either go their seperate ways or join T11. It would appear that noone really wants to be with E when it falls.

It also makes no sense for them to draw attention to themselves if they don't want the average person knowing a trick. It just seems ridiculous.

If you have any more questions that you want me to answer here then PM me.

Dylan P.

 

[..:Z:..]

Z, the problem here can be summed up in your last sentence. You don't think.

That must be why I'm doing so well in my english class. You know, from not thinkin'.

You're not willing to do any amount of work for your own sake,

You should see some of my major accomplishments.

you expect us to change to accomodate you.

If asking for clarification to your snide remarks is too much to ask for, then I REALLY don't expect anything from you.

I would be cool if you started teaching magic well and your intention was to rotate new blood into the scene.

There are some really good tutorials out there on YouTube and the director, no matter how many times he exclaims his truthful intentions, are always slammed by other magicians in the community. I'm not surprised.

Your problem is made obvious in that you seem to believe everybody who watches Celebracadabra is your enemy.

My audience and I are doing just fine, thank you very much.

You're more paranoid than a pothead schizophrenic.

Really?

You refuse to believe for even a nanosecond that your spectators are not out to get you.

Umm.... They're not out to get me. I'm not afraid of them. Where did you get that idea from?

And why? Because being a victim is much easier than reframing a situation and turning it into something positive.

They could really use your positive-outlook in one of those SVU-units. They would really appreciate that.

You accuse me of only being cool with this because Brad Christian teaches it.

I don't think your okay with anyone teaching magic for free regardless of his intentions and how well the tutor does it

However, by the same magnificently bad logic,

Ouch. A bad case of misinterpretation.

I could make similar accusations about you. If you bought Control, you'd see that in one performance, Wayne exposes the back palm to his audience The keyword is audience, NOT the entire T.V.-population (which, I think Brad said that 90 million people watch VH1). as the set-up for performing Paul Harris's Invisible Palm routine.

If we're going to be absolutist about this sort of thing, then by your own logic you should stop supporting Wayne. But I know you won't, because you know as well as I do that it's a stupid idea.

Actually, Wayne doesn't make commercials with hyperlinks to his very own little exposure site on it for business-minded reasons. I don't think he ever will, either.

But because Ellusionist is doing it, you go on the warpath. How is that any less stupid?

Umm, lol, I think E is the ONLY one doing it. Do you see T11, Penguin, Lybrary, etc, creating commercials with hyperlinks leading to their own little exposure sites for business-minded reasons?

Ya' know, I'd expect something like this from PenguinMagic (seeing how they supposivly screwed-over old-man J).

That's what you thought? No. You didn't think at all.

Hey, more insults! Why am I not surprised?

..........

 

[..:Z:..]

Now, the reason I say Ellusionist is losing it's touch is this. It seems to me that E has become increasingly desprate and trying to draw attention to themselves by having discounts and hosting a TV show.

I'm surprised that no one has been talking about Stained Skin and it's been out for months!

Prices have begun to drop on everything there.

Not a bad thing. E charges like an ARM for a few decks; a leg for the entire SSs, and your newborn baby for things like the M5. It's about time they dropped their prices!

Also Brad Christan says he is against exposure...but how can we be certain if he reveals tricks for free to the public on that page.

Irony.

Many people of Ellusionist have began to leave and either go their seperate ways or join T11. It would appear that noone really wants to be with E when it falls.

The E forums have changed pretty drastically in the mid 2007, I think. You can almost never go to their forums without seeing like, at least 3 threads that are locked due to reasons such as, "Use the search feature," "uz teh serch feture." and "Why they hell are you bumping this old thread back up again?"

It also makes no sense for them to draw attention to themselves if they don't want the average person knowing a trick. It just seems ridiculous.

They want money! Of course they want the attention! If they use that money to make more, high-caliber products then I don't mind that. But if they're just gonna resurrect old effects hidden somewhere in out-of-print books that we don't know about, then I'm not okay with that.

..........

 

[Brad Henderson]

Being taught magic means that either you have an aproved mentor or have paid for DVD's and books. You also aren't just trying to learn the secret but you want to beccome a magician.

Dylan P.

Just to make this more fun: Would going to a library to check out a book on magic constitute exposure?

 

[Dylan P.]

Just to make this more fun: Would going to a library to check out a book on magic constitute exposure?

Absolutely not. You either have paid for a library card and it is your right or you are going to pay for checking out a book. So this is not going to be counted as exposure here.

 

[RichmanMatthew]

Ellusionist made the stupidest mistake I've ever seen... Read the following and tell me what is wrong with it...

"Pull a playing card out of thin air"
Your hand is empty and then you slowly and visible pull a coin out of thin air... inches from someone's eyes.

 

[Dylan P.]

you "visible" pull it out. It should be visibly.

 

[RichmanMatthew]

Ellusionist made the stupidest mistake I've ever seen... Read the following and tell me what is wrong with it...

"Pull a playing card out of thin air"
Your hand is empty and then you slowly and visible pull a coin out of thin air... inches from someone's eyes.

you "visible" pull it out. It should be visibly.

I didn't notice that one. There's a bigger one in there also.