GIMMICKS vs SLEIGHTS

[praetoritevong]

Again: Why are you at all inclined to repeat an effect people have seen recently? That's asking for it. I understand your point that if you can perform it with their deck as well, that would increase the impressiveness - but so would blowing them out of the water with something they haven't seen before - therefore keeping the element of surprise. If people have already seen something, they have certain expectations. Whilst it may be powerful to exceed those expectations, they place unnecessary conditions on your magic. Ultimately, you should control what you perform and how you perform.

So tying it back into gimmicks, whatever achieves your aim, should be used, within reason (i.e. the practicality of pocket space may be an issue).

 

[bloodstar]

Here is my opinion. When I first started magic, I told myself that I would avoid the trick with the pass, with the double/tripple lift. Then I did all of them, then I say no with duplicate cards, then now I like them. I used to say HELL NO, never use the double tape, no torn card, no gaffs because people will check the deck . Now I used them all >>> wonderful to combine all together. I can keep them safely from spectator (most of the time ).
Gimmick without sleight of hand ? >>> hand-shaking pro (get married with invisible deck).
Sleight of hand without gimmick ? >>> alright, one day you will give it a second thought (get married with Aaron Fisher ).

About "Hey could you show my friends the trick you showed me yesterday???"
No gimmick with me, I love to say: ....OH, I am sorry that trick is not work today (raise your voice+ smile = get a laugh)...let me show you something else.... not big deal for me now. (damn, Stigmata is the most do-it-again "card effect" that I've known)

 

[avihoffmanmagic]

Your job as a magician is to entertain an audience, with gaffs, with gimmicks, with sleight of hand, and any other way you can. What you sound like you are saying is that using gaffs/gimmicks are cheating. I think it is important to do both sleight of hand and gaff magic. If someone asks you to repeat a trick that you cant do, you can do a different trick that requires sleight of hand, or you can give the excuse that you cant do it if they know what to expect. (This is partially true, so you dont have to totally lie by this one) Gaffs give you routines that you cant do with sleight of hand. You give the example of the transposition by using a duplicate, that you can do the same or similar trick by using pure sleight of hand. But you cant exactly do a trick like Inked, Parallel, Crowded, Dead Cell, or Crime using a normal deck in an impromptu situation? That would be a magician's dream come true, but is it practical, or even possible? No. So you are outlawing some of the greatest effects on the market because on the off chance that a spectator will ask you to repeat a specific trick. 90% of people will say "that guy can do magic" as opposed to "that guy did this and this trick". And from those 10% of people who get told a specific trick, maybe half of them ask you to do that exact same trick. 95% of people just say ''do a trick''. Now I'm not saying to replace sleight of hand with gaff magic, but dont say that gimmick/gaff magic lessens your oppurtunities in magic, or is negative in any way. If anything, it will open your possibilities infinitely.

 

[visualartist]

All I gotta say is who the heck does the SAME trick twice for the SAME people?

I think prae said it too.

 

[BrainUndead]

I respond to this with the utmost humility and respect for all involved, including those opposing my opinion.

I am a novice magician, but when I get to where I want to be I will carry no more than 54 tools with me to perform magic with. A deck of cards, and my two hands.

I think "pure" tricks are the fairest way possible to interact with your audience. Yes, the argument can be (and is) made that to your spectators, it might not... well, lets face it. It probably won't make a difference. So I can see the self serving side of the argument. However, I do know of people who aren't magicians but have seen an invisible deck, duplicates, and they know some of the most basic gaff tricks. I've seen tricks with certain gaff cards before I knew what the term "gaff" meant and it never really impressed me. I always thought things of that nature were approaching the line of clown magic.

My point is, I myself, personally, enjoy having the magic in my hands and no where else. I like the fact that I don't need an apparatus... that if I'm even without my cards, I can grab the family deck and perform with them. In the more knowing company of spectators, it is impressive when you used the same cards they played slap jack with the night prior to your act.

For those who have seen examples of gimmicks, who are wanting to check someone's "sleeves" I like knowing that there is absolutely nothing to discover (if you play your cards right...). I can show up in my boxers, use the deck they just bought from a cvs pharmacy and I'm no less effective than other conditions.

It is true that abstaining from gimmicks limits you as a magician. However, it limits you in the same way it would if you decided you didn't want to use sponge balls, or silks, or rope tricks, or even just coin tricks. I really see it as a preference, and one that shouldn't be judged as harshly (and I mean from both ends) as it is. Gimmicks sometimes are an easier means to an end. Some effects are practically done for you with gimmicks, while sleight of hand would be much more difficult. The trade off is in the confidence knowing you don't need anything else to perform that certain effect...

By the way, I'm a novice bass player as well. And that finger style vs pick was a very good comparison, I think it fits perfectly. But I would also like to mention that while its difficult to get a pick sound with your fingers, that most agree (at least as far as the bass guitar is concerned) that finger style is more dynamic and versatile. I am of this opinion, and that translates to my belief in "pure" magic as well.

To each his own. I am more impressed with pure sleight of hand, that is a personal taste. But I still respect those who are gaffed to the hilt and do it well.

 

[TheatreHead]

I respond to this with the utmost humility and respect for all involved, including those opposing my opinion.

I am a novice magician, but when I get to where I want to be I will carry no more than 54 tools with me to perform magic with. A deck of cards, and my two hands.

I think "pure" tricks are the fairest way possible to interact with your audience. Yes, the argument can be (and is) made that to your spectators, it might not... well, lets face it. It probably won't make a difference. So I can see the self serving side of the argument. However, I do know of people who aren't magicians but have seen an invisible deck, duplicates, and they know some of the most basic gaff tricks. I've seen tricks with certain gaff cards before I knew what the term "gaff" meant and it never really impressed me. I always thought things of that nature were approaching the line of clown magic.

My point is, I myself, personally, enjoy having the magic in my hands and no where else. I like the fact that I don't need an apparatus... that if I'm even without my cards, I can grab the family deck and perform with them. In the more knowing company of spectators, it is impressive when you used the same cards they played slap jack with the night prior to your act.

For those who have seen examples of gimmicks, who are wanting to check someone's "sleeves" I like knowing that there is absolutely nothing to discover (if you play your cards right...). I can show up in my boxers, use the deck they just bought from a cvs pharmacy and I'm no less effective than other conditions.

It is true that abstaining from gimmicks limits you as a magician. However, it limits you in the same way it would if you decided you didn't want to use sponge balls, or silks, or rope tricks, or even just coin tricks. I really see it as a preference, and one that shouldn't be judged as harshly (and I mean from both ends) as it is. Gimmicks sometimes are an easier means to an end. Some effects are practically done for you with gimmicks, while sleight of hand would be much more difficult. The trade off is in the confidence knowing you don't need anything else to perform that certain effect...

By the way, I'm a novice bass player as well. And that finger style vs pick was a very good comparison, I think it fits perfectly. But I would also like to mention that while its difficult to get a pick sound with your fingers, that most agree (at least as far as the bass guitar is concerned) that finger style is more dynamic and versatile. I am of this opinion, and that translates to my belief in "pure" magic as well.

To each his own. I am more impressed with pure sleight of hand, that is a personal taste. But I still respect those who are gaffed to the hilt and do it well.

so you'd prefer to give up the stronger reactions you could have gotten?

same with bass. you'd give up the clean sound you get from picking because you're trying to be "pure"? learn picking and fingerstyle, and that's way more versatile and dynamic than just finger style.

same with magic. you think you can be more versatile with just pure sleight? learn sleights and gimmicks, you are much more versatile either way.

i use gimmicks in most of my routines, and i'm completely comfortable to perform at a moments notice with a borrowed deck. hell, one of my strongest effects is done with a borrowed deck.

if you're using gimmicks in your magic, you'd hope that your sleight is also formidable; you'd be hard pressed to find a coin magician who uses shells but can't do coin basics for example.

 

[SleightOfHand Crazed]

Hey people, how about GAFF cards that REQUIRE Sleight of hand to accomplish.

Eg: You have the gaff, but you will need Sleight Of Hand to make it magical. Without Sleight Of Hand, it is nothing but a weird looking card ?

I personally think gaff cards + sleight of hand kicks ass.

But no matter what, I LOVE SLEIGHT OF HAND. =)

 

[BrainUndead]

If I find the reactions aren't strong enough without gimmicks, I'll investigate it further. Until then I'm fine with a deck of cards.

And as for your picking and fingerstyle idea, its not so easily matched as gimmicks and sleights. The actual plucking motion must be done with either the fingers or the pick. You can consider switching off, but in order to do that one of your fingers has to hold the pick and can no longer contribute to the fingerstyle. Most would hold it in the thumb but thats a major part of fingerstyle play... it just doesn't fit the example quite as well. I could see switching between them, perhaps. But even in that case you'd have to find a way to make the both of them sound well together... not impossible, but not common either.

Still, I stick to the point I had before. I'm less versatile since I don't use a watch trick, for example. Or I don't know chip tricks. Or I don't use cups and balls. All are arguably less versatile.

The magic I enjoy most is done with the hands alone, so I will continue to pursue this.

 

[visualartist]

I hear the same arguments for the people who prefer sleight of hand than instead of being smart and know how to do both gimmicks and sleights(Its the obvious thing to do when becoming a magician.Why people cant realize it eludes me).
The argument being "give me a deck of cards and ill do hundreds of tricks".
Sheesh guys.
What if I wanted to do a coin in bottle? Produce a live freakin' fish?
Make stuff float? You know,things that laymen expect a magician to do.

 

[Althor]

Hey people, how about GAFF cards that REQUIRE Sleight of hand to accomplish.

Eg: You have the gaff, but you will need Sleight Of Hand to make it magical. Without Sleight Of Hand, it is nothing but a weird looking card ?

I personally think gaff cards + sleight of hand kicks ass.

But no matter what, I LOVE SLEIGHT OF HAND. =)

I agree.. Gaffs and gimmicks does not mean self-working. They rely on sleights.

 

[BrainUndead]

The same arguments are said on both sides, and repeated in every forum there is on magic. And it always seems to end the same way.

Its very simple. If you wanted to produce a live freakin' fish, then you would, by the method that you were most fond of. The same way I would hope any magician approaches his own style of magic.

I don't think it has much to do with knowing, since knowing how to do something, being able to do something, and then actually performing it are all completely different things. I don't think it has to do with what is smarter either.

I was simply telling you what style of magic I am most fond of, and why. I wasn't telling you what your magic should be.

 

[a1magician]

Everyone keeps on saying that if you give up gimmicks, you are limiting yourself from the best reactions in the world.I got this from a professional magic magazine, that even a simple doublelift can create the best reactions if the magician is competent enough.That's the difference between a professional and a newbie. If both are asked to perform a doublelift based trick, the professional will quickly gain a better reaction due to his patter and style.

My point is that...
Greater reaction is very subjective topic. Gimmick or no gimmick the reaction you receive depends upon your capabilities as a magician. So whoever introduced this topic here might not understand the real essence of this debate

 

[bloodstar]

My point is that...
Greater reaction is very subjective topic. Gimmick or no gimmick the reaction you receive depends upon your capabilities as a magician. So whoever introduced this topic here might not understand the real essence of this debate

Yes! I agree

 

[dark11kenshin]

well, this is the reason why i tell magicians to quit cards and coins and start mentalism and hypnosis...

LOL! Kidding aside

well, in my very short span of card magic (2 1/2 years) i humbly put my opinion in this thread filled with experienced magicians.

i, though seeing the great potential that gaffs and gimmicks give, purely rely on my sleight of hand.not because i dont like gaffs or think negative of them, but its partly because i prefer sleights and because of lack of opportunity to get a chance at using gaffs. living in a place where there are only about 5 magicians (me, my brother and 3 or so clowns)well its obvious that there isnt even a magic shop nearby.and buying off the net well is not an option.imagine having to spend 1000 philippine pesos to only get a hold of 5 gaffs(gaff cards, not deck...yip its sold here by the card)well it could get pretty expensive.and spending 200pesos for 30 cm of invi thread...what a big expense to the magician in a 3rd world country...well, i believe that the choice between sleight or gaff not only is a matter of preference but also matter of opportunity and practicality.

My point is that...
Greater reaction is very subjective topic. Gimmick or no gimmick the reaction you receive depends upon your capabilities as a magician. So whoever introduced this topic here might not understand the real essence of this debate

here, i believe what my brother says, reactions does vary depending on how you handle the spectators, this is where the blur between the gaffs and sleights come in.coz it doesnt matter who used what, but who gets better reactions.

magic is self expression,
if you are like me who values skill so much and is dedicated to practicing 10 hours a day, and wants to have pride in his handling, well sleights are really good for you...it doesnt matter what comes out from this debat, its how you become yourself in magic and you can only be yourself if you are comfortable with whatever means you use...

i believe as a magician, i am the magic i perform, thus no one can say my magic is not right(because i use only sleights)...


daRk

 

[cedwards90]

please dont tell me you actually listen to this noise. Your advice is rather horrible considering you dont know what your talking about.

Stop looking for a fight, contribute to the argument or F@#% off. What is with you people lately. Every single thread does not have to turn into a fight. I am not trying to continue it. I will not respond to anything, just let it die so we can continue to discuss this topic peacefully, PLEASE!

 

[alanpaoletti]

my thoughts

I had all kinds of gaffs, invisible decks, svengali, packets for 3 card monte, you name it, I probably had it. I realized more and more that I stopped carrying these around, first because of limited pocket space and then about five years ago, I made a conscious decision to get rid of all of them for good, I don't even own a coin in bottle! I had a Johnson too! It was nice, but ultimately I decided that it wasn't for me. In the overused words of Robert Frost, "I took the road less traveled, and it made all the difference."

Now I do pure sleight of hand and I can perform anytime, anywhere and not worry about it. I don't have bulging pockets trying to carry several different decks of cards to do one trick. That's ridiculous! Pocket management, a pack of cards and a couple of coins in your pocket gives you so much milage if you just know how to use them. I look at gaffs as a kind of cop out.

And that just goes back into one of the reasons I'm a closeup magician instead of a stage magician. A very dear and old magician friend of mine who did thousands of shows in his heyday said "Generally speaking a stage magician (which he was) is a whole lot of showmanship and a little skill, whereas a closeup magician is just the opposite".

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with stage magic, absolutely not, I've seen things that to this day mystify me.

I am simply saying, closeup magic is a hard route to take, but if you put the work into it, it will be the most rewarding thing you have ever engaged.

In summary, pocket space, simplicity, versatility and the ability to improvise have all lead to my decision to never use gaffs. I don't suffer from less amazed reactions. I don't know why you guys think a person can't be amazing without them. And for those who are entertained, but realize that it's all just a trick are just that much more impressed when you did something amazing with just your hands. It is a power, a sacred one, and I'd like to see magicians lessen their dependency on gaffs.

Alan

 

[kyle007]

ok guys tired so I did not read all the posts, but regarding your first post, sure if your in a pinch don't have the gimmick and they want to see it, in my opinion its better to NOT have it
a)you degrade yourself to *dance magic man dance* b) leaves them wanting more c)gives them an opportunity to figure it out

(if i repeat something more then ONCE i use a different method) say card to pocket first one use a p**m since they don't know what to expect, second time use random card+ a DL, third time they think they got you show they're card in your hand and the rest of the deck in your pocket, im a fond believer of cancelling methods and gimmicks cancel alot of methods eg. coin vanish do a retention vanish then either s****e it or use a gimmick to get it clean and they think hey maybe in his other hand and then you can show them completely clean

Last note here gimmicks help you achieve some effects that are literally impossible, or not nearly as powerful otherwise. Eg. Invisible Deck i came up with a method for a 99.9% impromptu version years ago (set up with the spectators around) and it packs a nice punch but you know what packs a bigger punch? the gimmicked deck. Also levitations of any sort (using IT for small objects, yourself etc etc) it just looks way better with gimmicks

 

[Vag123]

I agree with you...
I don't own too many gaff cards and that's why i'm trying to use those i have in as many different effects as possible.
a gaff has a million uses.. but you need to know all the sleights and techniques to put them to make a good trick. (and of course your imagination) so, i think that gaffs plus sleights beat everything. amazing reactions.

 

[rynkuangel]

what ever method you use...magic trick has it's own limitation as we are not god. answer to this question relies on the responder. i love both gizzmo and sleight of hand. why don't you combine them? use it in a right moment.
The finale of svengaly deck gives you more clarity than a flustration count (this count relies on discrepancy). but both of them are equally powerful if you know when you should do it.

 

[ReservoirRed]

"The end justifies the means" -Brad Christian.

Sure it's Brad Christian who said that, but I think its great advice.
You only have one chance to impress, why not make it something unbelievable? Hence the use of a gimmick.

It is also important to have skills to back it up with thou. So I think both sleight and gimmicks are equally as important.

Use gimmicks to compliment your magic rather than to create it.

I believe Brad may have stolen that particular quote, at the very least he didn't give the creator credit. Niccolo Machiavelli is credited for it as he wrote it in his book 'The Prince' in the early sixteenth century, however it has appeared many times in print and has been around in one form or another for much longer.

This is your first lesson in research and giving people due credit.