Is Cardistry recognizable?

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May 17, 2013
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i'm flattered that you guys pay this much attention to me that you recite everything that i post.

enough with negativity please and just be positive. Thats all i ask is that you people post nice, positive posts.

I'm just saying this category is for the flourishers, the manipulators. I think that talking about mentalism belongs in a mentalism category, not flourishing

card magic, okay, you know theres a little bit of manipulation in card magic. but mentalism?
 

yyyyyyy

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Apr 7, 2012
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Why are we comparing Cardini and Andrei? That's a bit like comparing David Copperfield to Cirque De Soleil. Two awesome acts, for completely different reasons. Regardless, that debate doesn't really answer the "Is cardistry recognizable" question.
 
May 17, 2013
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is cardistry reconizable yes.
thats what i heard from everybody. but only on the internet
is it as recognizable as football or bmx? No
i am asking if anyone of you have cool creative ways to promote it a little bit more
 
Apr 17, 2013
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Prodigy of Cardistry & Flourishing - andrei jikh

says theory11

look it up

Yes and I'm Pablo Escobar. See you can say anything on the internet. There are also people in Ohio who will swear they have seen me levitate three feet off the ground when it was really only about six to eight inches. It;s all in who is telling the tale.

you see that guy krab 1 resorted to cardini as to card maniulation.
but thats not the type of card manipulation i'm talking about

Right but the thing is there really isn't a way to make money in the real world with card juggling. It's not something you can get a job table hopping or work a wedding. Maybe as part of a variety act at a street festival or a ren fair but the problem it is a close up thing so it doesn't play well on a bigger stand like old school manipulation does. It seems like it is a video thing.
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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If you can't learn how to create a successful entertainment business from someone who is currently creating a successful entertainment business, you need to stop thinking about creating a successful entertainment business.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Yes and I'm Pablo Escobar. See you can say anything on the internet.

Why stop there? We could spend this whole thread creating our own Most Interesting Man in the World commercials about ourselves and by the logic that some ad copy on a website makes it legit, that would spontaneously transform all of us into international men of intrigue and danger. Except for the fact that I, you know, already am.

Right but the thing is there really isn't a way to make money in the real world with card juggling. It's not something you can get a job table hopping or work a wedding. Maybe as part of a variety act at a street festival or a ren fair but the problem it is a close up thing so it doesn't play well on a bigger stand like old school manipulation does. It seems like it is a video thing.

I don't think we've seen the limits of what it can do yet. But sitting around wishing for greatness isn't going to make it so. As long as a person believes that greatness is their birthright instead of an ideal to be attained, they'll remain nothing but a daydreamer with delusions of grandeur. Optimism is nice when it motivates you, but it's equally as counterproductive as pessimism when it leads you to sit around all day thinking of what could be instead of actually doing anything.

My opinion is that the person who will break the art out of a rut and increase the public visibility will be someone who is extremely media savvy with a strong sense of theatricality. They should have a good head for business and in intuition that allows them to navigate the entertainment industry without being low-balled, fleeced, or chewed up and spit out. Furthermore, they should develop a performing style that appeal to the current cultural zeitgeist; something that most performers these days are sorely lacking. I like Doug Henning as much as you guys, but Doug's act was ideally suited for the 70's and that was 40 years ago. Times have changed and we should too. I've seen far too many magicians, flourishers and mentalists doing the same routines of yesteryear with the same tired jokes and one-liners, growing complacent and fat. But I digress.

Long story short, there's still a lot of work to be done. Flourishers need to be pounding the pavement, experimenting. Not all of their efforts will succeed, but that's why they're called experiments. Better to shoot for the stars and land in the mud than to shoot for the mud and make it.
 

Andrei

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Sep 2, 2007
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If I had listened to magicians when I was younger, I wouldn't have had so many awesome experiences and made so many good friends. At the end of the day, don't listen to me, ESPECIALLY don't listen to magicians, and experiment. Do what you like - because what you like, a million other people like as well. The hard part is having the courage, the second hard part is being at the right place, at the right time. Keep creating opportunities. Keep trying new ideas with cardistry and knock on doors. Most importantly, keep failing.

Cardistry is in a good position, it's a visual medium in the days of the internet. Information spreads crazy fast. Limitless possibilities in close-up, stage, and the internet. Think big. Think movies, commercials, and stage - not weddings or table hopping ha. Don't be limited by anyone telling you "it's not good enough for table hopping". They're absolutely right, it's much better than that. Don't be bogged down by the trivial.

Magic is an outstanding art that has "flourished" (see what I did there?) in many formats. Cardistry has different strengths and we live in a different time. I don't know the limits. I do know that I'm one of many and haven't even scratched the surface of what I can do, and should do. It's encouraging to know that we DON'T know what the limits are but as with anything, have to keep making noise. Don't listen to people if all they have to say is "it can't be done".
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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ESPECIALLY don't listen to magicians

I love you too.

Okay, let's try this from a different angle. Let's try a thought experiment. Let's say you wake up one morning to find the reset button was hit on your career. You retain all of your skills, but you no longer have any connections, gigs lined up, and only the savings from a day job. To get back to the point of being a self-sufficient full-time performance artist, what would you do first? What would you do in the first year? I'm pretty sure I already know how you would feel and that you would believe in yourself. You've made that very clear. But what actions would you take?
 

Andrei

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First. I'd start panicking because, what the hell happened? Then, I would spend less time typing on forums debating about the merits of what I love doing with someone that has no idea. With that extra time, I'd start a youtube channel. Make a promo. Start networking. Meeting people and reaching out for possible opportunities is the first thing. Mileage may vary ha.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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First. I'd start panicking because, what the hell happened?

Let's assume that Mr. Serling would be standing by to explain everything to you in monologue format.

Start a youtube channel. Make a promo. Start networking. I'd start there.

I'm going to choose to ignore the catty remark. Let's start with the YouTube channel. What would go up on it? Webcam videos? Live videos? Montages?

Make a promo. And send it to who? Who would you be prospecting? What sort of demographics would you be trying to appeal to? What would the copy look like? Can you give us some examples of successful copy you've used in the past? You know, a headline or two, maybe a specific offer you made that got a good response?

Start networking. With who? What sort of groups would you be looking for? How would you find them? What type of people are you specifically hoping to build a relationship with?
 

Andrei

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Let's assume that Mr. Serling would be standing by to explain everything to you in monologue format.



I'm going to choose to ignore the catty remark. Let's start with the YouTube channel. What would go up on it? Webcam videos? Live videos? Montages?

Make a promo. And send it to who? Who would you be prospecting? What sort of demographics would you be trying to appeal to? What would the copy look like? Can you give us some examples of successful copy you've used in the past? You know, a headline or two, maybe a specific offer you made that got a good response?

Start networking. With who? What sort of groups would you be looking for? How would you find them? What type of people are you specifically hoping to build a relationship with?

Hopefully the right people. I don't have the capacity to speak hypothetically and give you specific predictions of what should or could happen to me as a result.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Hopefully the right people. I don't have the capacity to speak hypothetically and give you specific predictions of what should or could happen to me as a result.

Wait, what? Dude, you've been at this for years. Are you actually telling me that you couldn't draft a new business plan if you had to? That can't be right. On the first page I gave one, or at least the skeleton of one. Look, I'll quote it right here so you don't have to dig for it:

So let's take a hypothetical young flourisher. For the sake of discussion, we'll refer to him as James. James understands the challenges described above, so he decides to start small and work his way up. The first thing he needs to do is hone his skills through practical experience while also absorbing performance theory and media theory.

James begins this little trek by going onto the streets to do short flourishing routines for tips in the style of a busking juggler or a guerrilla magician. The streets are a true crucible that force you to step up your game in a hurry or you don't get tips. James also searches for open-mic nights at all the local coffee shops, juice bars, etc. This also serves the double purpose of being an excellent place to network with other local artists. Remember, to get on TV, David Blaine first did an insane amount of networking among the various artists, actors, filmmakers and musicians in his native NYC. He learned all about media from them and it in turn enhanced his own abilities as a performer.

At the same time, James goes to the library to learn a little about marketing and copywriting. He's going to be a one-man operation for the foreseeable future, so he needs to learn the business side of entertainment. Once he's feeling more comfortable in front of audiences, he starts by setting up an online presence with some social media, maybe a website, but most definitely building up a mailing list. He collects emails whenever he performs and keeps people updated of when and where he's going to be performing, what new material he's working on, new videos, etc.

Once he's established as a regular at the open-mic nights, he starts asking the bosses if they could give him some testimonials for his website. By now, if he's tracking the open rate to his email list, he should have a better idea of what demographics and types of people respond to his act as well as what aspects of it people seem to like the best, including in his own personality and the persona he projects when performing. With a handle on this, he sheds what isn't working and plays up what is.

For the sake of argument, let's say that James is a debonair, charming guy like an old-fashioned movie star. He's classy, witty and keeps his mouth shut enough to be intriguing and a little bit mysterious. He starts performing on stage wearing only black and white and using cards with similarly classy looks. He notes that his audience especially likes the aerial moves he's worked into his show, so he expands on that, even adding card throwing to his list of skills. He might even make vegetable chopping with thrown cards a part of his act.

Once he has a decent list going (at least several hundred strong) with an open rate of higher 10%, that's enough for a modest, though not great start. He puts together a list of bars, clubs and other venues that are known to book live entertainment. If he's kept up with his networking, he might even team up with a couple of other entertainers such as musicians to offer a package deal to the prospects. They put together the direct mail campaign and follow up. They persist in mailing and calling until they either are given the gigs or the venue starts hanging up on them. One of the hooks James uses in his campaign is the uniqueness of his act translating to word of mouth and bragging rights for the venue. They're hosting a talent unlike anything else in the area, drawing people in through sheer novelty. Your job as an entertainer is to always, no exceptions, make the guy who booked you look good and possibly make him a little wealthier by the end of the night.

When James finally does get his gigs, he always, always, always tries to add as many people as he can to his list. He gets more testimonials. He sends out new mailers. He designs mail campaigns to venues that already booked him to get repeat gigs. Once he's established himself, he then has a strong platform to jump into other media such as TV appearance, web video at popular sites, etc.

And I'm not even a flourisher. I would have thought that as one yourself you could come up with something even better than that in less than 5 minutes. Are you actually telling me that you can't, or at least don't want to? Dude, people here look up to you. You do this stuff for a living. Surely you've gained at least some knowledge of the practical business side of this whole crazy rodeo. It would be a boon to your fans if you would illuminate some more of it because this isn't an easy line of work to break into. For any of us!

I know you don't like me. I know that we have irreconcilable differences of opinion. But we both want to see this art be pushed further into the limelight, even if for different reasons. I'm willing to put the bickering aside and have this talk if you are. You keep saying you want me to be less negative. So think of this as the first step in that process. Think of it as an interview.
 
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Andrei

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Steerpike, 99% of the time, I have no idea what you're arguing for or against, or even why. What new business plan? Are we on the same planet?

To clarify though, I perform for fun on my off times, not for a living, maybe there was confusion but it looks like you have a wonderful plan. It seems you've answered your own question so I'm not sure what more I can help you with. Let me know how it goes!

What is it you want? Do you want a question answered about me personally? Then ask! I have zero experience in your hypotheticals - I can't answer them from your standpoint. Do you need help with your professional career? Or are we here to discuss in a positive forward moving way what we can potentially do to promote cardistry? That said, I hope both our time is wiser spent elsewhere rather than debating about something that 1) you aren't pursuing 2) has an audience of 2... Thanks!
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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Are we on the same planet?

I guess not.

To clarify though, I perform for fun on my off times, not for a living,

This explains a lot.

What is it you want? Do you want a question answered about me personally? Then ask! I have zero experience in your hypotheticals - I can't answer them from your standpoint.

I was under the impression that you were a professional performer. Since your fans have declared rather overt contempt for me as a mentalist I figured I would quit preaching and see if I could get a professional to talk shop and discuss the ins and outs of the business side of this crazy little thing called the entertainment industry.

A lot of people here are acting like if they post some webcam videos on YouTube, sing Don't Stop Believin' by Journey, and click their heels together three times, then the Swedish bikini team will appear at their front door with a jumbo check and a TV crew. At some point you need to quit fantasizing and actually do some work to make all these dreams happen. I thought maybe if you explained some of this instead of me they would listen. Joke's on me, I guess.

Do you need help with your professional career?

Yes, but that's what I talk to guys like Craig Browning, Rick Maue and Docc Hilford for. That's what I buy books from guys like Bill Glazer and Dan Kennedy and Seth Godin for.

Or are we here to discuss in a positive forward moving way what we can potentially do to promote cardistry? That said, I hope both our time is wiser spent elsewhere rather than debating about something that 1) you aren't pursuing 2) has an audience of 2... Thanks!

So I present a solid business plan proving that I know what I'm talking about... but I should quit talking about stuff like that because I'm not a flourisher and nobody's listening anyway? Whatever, dude. At least I tried.
 

Andrei

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Sep 2, 2007
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A lot of people here are acting like if they post some webcam videos on YouTube, sing Don't Stop Believin' by Journey, and click their heels together three times, then the Swedish bikini team will appear at their front door with a jumbo check and a TV crew. At some point you need to quit fantasizing and actually do some work to make all these dreams happen. I thought maybe if you explained some of this instead of me they would listen. Joke's on me, I guess.

Uh what? A lot of people where are acting like what? Again, what are you talking? The discussion was what can we do to promote cardistry? No rainbows or unicorns here dude.

If you dismissed me for being a non performer, then why complain when people dismiss you when you have no stake in flourishing? Again, you make zero sense to me.
 
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May 17, 2013
42
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annapolis maryland
andrei is right

i know for him and me that cardistry will always be apart of our lives.
even if we don't do it for a living then we should still be happy then.

you love cardistry enough to.
1- not give up your skills for anything
2- even when you get mad when you drop the deck, you still practice
3- lastly and most important, you have to believe in what you are doing. if you don't then the time your wasting is useless, you have to know that what your doing is a good thing.
 
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