Is exposure a significant problem in magic?
- Thread starter kingdamian1
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Ok. Last post.
Once again @kingdamian1 you've ignored more than half of my points. I assume either you're literally ignoring my posts or you're just not wanting to engage in what I'm saying because it counters what you're trying to say.
Let's take a peek at that medical stuff you keep talking about - Did you know it's a significant problem for doctors because people DO Google medical information and self-diagnose? Just like with magic, people Google stuff and get a really inflated sense of how much knowledge they have and then the qualified professionals have to argue with them about the correct diagnosis and treatment. It's even a meme of sorts - https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.seroundtable.com/google-medical-degree-doc-sign-1455711655.jpg
Read back through this thread, try to pay attention to ALL the points we have brought up.
You notice how people keep asking how much experience you have? That's because someone who's read one or two books and performs mostly for friends and family has a wildly different view of the magic world than someone who, for example, has been performing regularly for real audiences for 8 years, and has earned his living exclusively through the magic world for 5 of those years. And you know what else? My level of experience is different to someone like my friend Danny who's done nothing but magic his entire adult life.
It's not a slight against you, but I just don't think you're experienced enough to have a qualified opinion here. Of course you can't see the problems inherent in the issues you're bringing up - it doesn't effect you, because you're not integrated into this world yet.
So. Final point - Is exposure a significant problem? Yes, it is, but not necessarily for the reasons that are often trotted out as examples.
Once again @kingdamian1 you've ignored more than half of my points. I assume either you're literally ignoring my posts or you're just not wanting to engage in what I'm saying because it counters what you're trying to say.
Let's take a peek at that medical stuff you keep talking about - Did you know it's a significant problem for doctors because people DO Google medical information and self-diagnose? Just like with magic, people Google stuff and get a really inflated sense of how much knowledge they have and then the qualified professionals have to argue with them about the correct diagnosis and treatment. It's even a meme of sorts - https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.seroundtable.com/google-medical-degree-doc-sign-1455711655.jpg
Read back through this thread, try to pay attention to ALL the points we have brought up.
You notice how people keep asking how much experience you have? That's because someone who's read one or two books and performs mostly for friends and family has a wildly different view of the magic world than someone who, for example, has been performing regularly for real audiences for 8 years, and has earned his living exclusively through the magic world for 5 of those years. And you know what else? My level of experience is different to someone like my friend Danny who's done nothing but magic his entire adult life.
It's not a slight against you, but I just don't think you're experienced enough to have a qualified opinion here. Of course you can't see the problems inherent in the issues you're bringing up - it doesn't effect you, because you're not integrated into this world yet.
So. Final point - Is exposure a significant problem? Yes, it is, but not necessarily for the reasons that are often trotted out as examples.
Yes, it may be that the people who subscribe are magical enthusiasts (who are unethically learning magic from someone other than the creator), but there are also MANY, MANY more people who don't subscribe who see the videos anyway when they search to find out how that trick they saw was done. Exposure, and a major problem. We are back to the point of there not being a barrier to access on YouTube.
The lack of a barrier to access, meaning hundreds of thousands of non-magicians can find out from these channels how a trick is done.
No. Magicians make up a TINY portion of the people who use YouTube. Most people who stumble across or seek out a magic tutorial are going to be non-magicians. Magicians can access magic from magic sites, or books, or products, or from learning directly from other magicians. YouTube just makes it so easy that lots of non-magicians can learn the secrets too.
Each individual person is in charge of what they put on the internet. Just like how each individual person is in charge of the decision to steal something or not, or to drink and drive or not. Magicians can decide what they want to put on the internet AND WHERE they put it. By choosing YouTube as a place to put their tutorials, they are ignoring the basic tenets of magic.
What?
A library holding important secrets to all magicians that has zero safeguards protecting those secrets.
To do this, they go to a website for magicians, or teach in a book for magicians, or teach magicians in person. If you teach on YouTube, you are NOT teaching "real magic mainly for people interested".
The key word here is "if". "If" a layman stumbles onto such a video (which he should not be able to if we all keep secrets the way we all should), the chances are FAR greater that they are going to see the method, go "Ah, that is how that magician did it!", and then end there. Want proof?
Magic is a tiny, niche community. If it was super common for laymen to stumble across a magic tutorial and then become magic enthusiasts / magicians, you would see much less "I know how you did that trick" and much more "Hey, cool trick! I do magic too."
YouTube is not for teaching people how to do magic. It is a place where people can dump whatever video content they like and make it incredibly easy to access. Yes, YouTube is used to teach people how to do things. Magic is different. Magic requires secrecy, and secrecy required barriers to access. YouTube has none.
Again, still irrelevant. Yes, both of your medicine videos are for two totally different purposes. Neither video hurts the field of medicine because the wrong audience watches it. In magic, it does.
Once again, irrelevant. Few people search for Fatal Familial Insomnia because it is even more of a niche topic than magic. Magic, on the flip side, is shown to people all the time. There are TV shows devoted to it. Popular YouTube channels that show magic performance. Popular magic shows off Broadway and traveling the country. Street performers in most large cities. There are MANY, MANY more reasons to search for a magic trick for most people than Fatal Familial Insomnia. You only search for Fatal Familial Insomnia if you or someone you know is or could be affected by it, or if you happen to have a medical curiosity. And, once again, if you do have that medical curiosity you don't hurt the medical field by looking up videos on the subject.
Irrelevant again. Nobody goes to YouTube to search for either "Was the protein only hypothesis confirmed in prion diseases?" or "Chinese Linking Ring sleights used by Dai vernon". What people go to YouTube for is "three ring magic trick". Want to know what the VERY first video that pops up is? A reveal video teaching you how the trick is done. Not teaching you the important magic history. No tips to make you a better performer. A reveal video that teaches you the raw secret and nothing more.
// L
Not to be mean, but @kingdamian1 it really does seem like you're ignoring most of the points brought up by @Lyle Borders @ChristopherT @RealityOne and everyone else who has replied to the thread. Either that, or you're totally misunderstanding what they're trying to say. I know some of us have written mini essays in response, but if you'd actually take the time to read them, they've all thoroughly answered your questions multiple times.
Yes... I read all of your responses...
Thank you.
So what exactly is the problem. All of you ( @RealityOne and @ChristopherT etc)... talk about how easy it is to find stuff and then just stop. What is the problem exactly? Heckling? Why? Do you not get payed if someone tries heckling you? If you are not performing for money, why perform for a heckler?
Now another point that you guys all forget is... I am NOT arguing that this is moral or ethical.
But the internet brings on change. As books brought on change... And changing attitudes about magic brought change? Why shouldn't think opportunity be embraced?
But to get to the heart of this question. Where or how is magic affected (significantly)? Magic is at its most popular. At least this century for sure! How is it being destroyed or ruined?
Which famous effect has been stopped because too many people knew about it? That is what I do not understand.
Classic effects seem more popular. Linking rings, cups and balls, ambitious card etc. are being performed all the time? These are some of the most used effects in modern magic despite being exposed countless times countless ways?
How is exposure a significant problem?
Thank you.
So what exactly is the problem. All of you ( @RealityOne and @ChristopherT etc)... talk about how easy it is to find stuff and then just stop. What is the problem exactly? Heckling? Why? Do you not get payed if someone tries heckling you? If you are not performing for money, why perform for a heckler?
Now another point that you guys all forget is... I am NOT arguing that this is moral or ethical.
But the internet brings on change. As books brought on change... And changing attitudes about magic brought change? Why shouldn't think opportunity be embraced?
But to get to the heart of this question. Where or how is magic affected (significantly)? Magic is at its most popular. At least this century for sure! How is it being destroyed or ruined?
Which famous effect has been stopped because too many people knew about it? That is what I do not understand.
Classic effects seem more popular. Linking rings, cups and balls, ambitious card etc. are being performed all the time? These are some of the most used effects in modern magic despite being exposed countless times countless ways?
How is exposure a significant problem?
We've all answered these questions... multiple times...
Yes, Anthony is correct. These questions have been answered by a number of intelligent and experienced individuals. To add my 2 cents in reply to the original question of this thread, yet seems to keep getting repeated again and again: "How is exposure a significant problem?" It's a significant problem because each person that learns a secret is one less person who will experience the mystery and wonder that lies at the heart of magic. And one more person who may, or will, call out a magician who is performing, so they can show how smart they are or to gratify their ego or because they need to be the center of attention. They will reveal the secret even in front of other spectators who may not even want to know, but who just want to be amazed and entertained and experience that beautiful sense of wonder. These individuals are "live" exposers and they were around well before the internet. I know this for a fact because I have been a professional performer for a very long time. But they were and are exposers nonetheless. However, now, due to the internet, exposure has gotten totally out of control and the secrets are accessible to literally millions. So now we have a ton of "virtual" exposers online, in addition to the "live" exposers. And the more exposure that happens online, not only will there be fewer and fewer people who will be amazed and experience that sense of wonder of magic can bring (which will, in turn, diminish the population of people for whom magicians will be able to create that amazement and wonder), but the more egotistical live exposers or haters there will be - armed and ready, and empowered to expose secrets before, during and after the performances of amateur and professional magicians alike. Is this not a "significant problem"?
Undoubtedly, the exposure problem is compounded because the person who has learned the secret is, in fact, likely to expose it to someone else, or even multiple people, and sadly, is likely to do so even during the performance of a magician who makes his/her living doing magic, or during the performances of the many amateurs who love magic and performing for their friends or family. When people know the secret, it's not magic anymore. (If however, people learn how an appendectomy is done, it is still medicine btw- that is where your attempted analogy fails). And, over time, the number of people who have access to these time-honored secrets will grow exponentially, either because more and more people will directly learn them from YouTube or other internet sources, or they will learn the secrets indirectly, from people to whom the secrets were exposed on the internet, and who then turned around and exposed the secret to them. "Hey, I know how he does it, I saw it on YouTube! See, what he does is he..." Or, "OH I know how he does it, my friend saw it on YouTube, its simple..." The question is not whether it will occur or whether it's here to stay. It appears that it will, and that it is. But that begs the question because the actual question posed by the OP was: Is exposure a significant problem? And it certainly is.
I have literally had people who have seen me perform at my restaurant/bar gigs come back in a week or two weeks later and tell me that they were so blown away by this or that effect that they couldn't rest until they finally found the secret online. @king Damian 1, I hope for your sake (and your aunt's sake, as well) that when your Aunt tells someone that you made her believe in magic after a lifetime of hating magic and magicians, that the person doesn't tell her how it was done...
Undoubtedly, the exposure problem is compounded because the person who has learned the secret is, in fact, likely to expose it to someone else, or even multiple people, and sadly, is likely to do so even during the performance of a magician who makes his/her living doing magic, or during the performances of the many amateurs who love magic and performing for their friends or family. When people know the secret, it's not magic anymore. (If however, people learn how an appendectomy is done, it is still medicine btw- that is where your attempted analogy fails). And, over time, the number of people who have access to these time-honored secrets will grow exponentially, either because more and more people will directly learn them from YouTube or other internet sources, or they will learn the secrets indirectly, from people to whom the secrets were exposed on the internet, and who then turned around and exposed the secret to them. "Hey, I know how he does it, I saw it on YouTube! See, what he does is he..." Or, "OH I know how he does it, my friend saw it on YouTube, its simple..." The question is not whether it will occur or whether it's here to stay. It appears that it will, and that it is. But that begs the question because the actual question posed by the OP was: Is exposure a significant problem? And it certainly is.
I have literally had people who have seen me perform at my restaurant/bar gigs come back in a week or two weeks later and tell me that they were so blown away by this or that effect that they couldn't rest until they finally found the secret online. @king Damian 1, I hope for your sake (and your aunt's sake, as well) that when your Aunt tells someone that you made her believe in magic after a lifetime of hating magic and magicians, that the person doesn't tell her how it was done...
Alright, we are done here. Every single question here has been asked by you multiple times, and has been answered by forum members multiple times. It is no longer productive in any way, shape or form.
I am closing this thread. This discussion is over, and I fully expect that it will not pop back up again in the same manner again.
// L
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