Magic/Miracle: Crossing the line...

[Deryn]

The title of this thread is misleading because I don't think it's a bad thing to "cross the line" when it comes to blurring the line between magic and miracle. For example,

Stigmata - Wayne came up with a brilliant way to reveal anything on your arm. Performers know to be weary to perform for God-fearing people.

Control - Yet another brainchild of W:H. Slowing down and stopping your pulse.

Stigmata AD - tears of blood, along with another pulse stopping technique, and blood from the hand.

I'm sure there are more effects that borderline Magic and Miracle but these are the "now" ones.

I personally love effects like these. With the magic I perform, I go for shock value. A reaction is great, but a stone cold stare with a locked open jaw seems to say so much more but does anyone think its crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed?

On a (not so) similar note, Jim Caveizel (sp) plays Jesus (same initials by the way) in The Passion of the Christ. Jim was the same age (while playing Jesus) as Jesus was when he was crucified. Also, Jim was struck by lightning while filming part of the crucifixion scene. Coincidence or warning?

Anyhow, the point I'm trying to make: Are we crossing a line or should it be fine for us to toy with 'replicating' what numerous religions fear? Even if we say it's magic/an illusion, is it right? Is it wrong? Is it ok?

I'm not THAT religious in any way but this is more of an ethical question.

 

[MitchellStafiej]

To present yourself as something you are not (a miracle worker) is exploiting your audience. Some people from your audience may believe and think you are the real deal if you present yourself as a miracle worker. The best thing you can do is to present your magic and a miracle of entertainment.

Mitchell

 

[Tally]

Well I'm a Catholic and I think that making our magic CLOSEST to a miracle is just an amazing thing to be able to witness. I certainly don't think it is wrong.

 

[mattjones]

To present yourself as something you are not (a miracle worker) is exploiting your audience. Some people from your audience may believe and think you are the real deal if you present yourself as a miracle worker. The best thing you can do is to present your magic and a miracle of entertainment.

Mitchell

Very well put. I personally like Stigmata and have used it at church before. (I did freak one guy out to the point where he avoided me for a while... but we're cool now.) Presentation is everything. You can do some serious damage with shocking/bizzare magic if you perform it in a convincing way.
I personally think Stigmata A.D. might be crossing the line... or at least coming right up to it... I don't think any less of you if shocking/bizzare magic is your thing, but I just think you need to choose you audince well.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hockball]

I believe that it all depends on the audience you are performing for. I personallly avoid doing effects such as stigmata or blood tears to anybody whom I know has a strong faith only to avoid causing serious problems. My friends mother is a strong believer in the catholic church and I know if I was to pull a stigmata on her that it would give her a heart attack.

On a lighter note, performing effects such as these on a younger crowd generally goes over well. Its the older generation I'd be extremely cautious about.

 

[romeo sierra]

These types of effects all too often border on distasteful exhibitions. I personally tend to steer clear of anything dealing with "shock magic," because while such stunts do receive amazing reactions, they rarely inspire genuine wonder. For instance, anything dealing with self-mutilation: people respond heavily to the graphic nature of such effects. If you stick a needle through your arm, you're not inspiring wonder like a magician should, per-se; you're merely freaking the people out. I don't see the point in doing that. Likewise goes with parallel plots-- where's the wonder in crying blood to bleeding from the palms? In my opinion, the religious undertones are unnecessary and poor judgment in more cases than one would desire.

Granted, I speak from under the blanket of a professional entertainer. I would never perform an effect involving blood or graphic self-mutilation (SAW, Needle through Arm, iVanish, etc) for cheap thrills, because frankly-- those effects could get me fired and ruin my reputation in the various establishments I perform. I'm not saying there isn't a place for such types of effects, but I would dare say that such places ARE rare and far in between in the real world.

Just not a fan...


RS.

 

[Anthony Bass]

Love Stigmata. So far loving Control. Stigmata A.D. in my opinion crosses the line. That's just too much. I mean seriously, you could scar people for life after seeing that. Having the name of a card showing up on your arm is one thing, but tears of blood and a bleeding palm is just too much.

Anthony Bass

 

[Steerpike]

Shocking/bizarre effects can be great. But not in the hands of amateurs.

Usually, when I hear about a kid bragging about the "crazy" reactions he got doing Stigmata, there's one thing going through my head. Wanker.

Really. It's masturbatory. There's no other motivation or reasoning.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

To present yourself as something you are not (a miracle worker) is exploiting your audience. Some people from your audience may believe and think you are the real deal if you present yourself as a miracle worker. The best thing you can do is to present your magic and a miracle of entertainment.

Mitchell

Actually you would just be exploiting yourself Mitchell but in essence it's all the same. IT'S JUST ENTERTAINMENT!!!!! It's not real and your audience knows that. Anything else is just limiting yourself.

Shane.

 

[CDarklock]

Are we crossing a line or should it be fine for us to toy with 'replicating' what numerous religions fear?

The line is in whether you give your effect religious significance - not only in the sense of claiming your performance is somehow religious, but also in claiming that your performance somehow robs an historical event of its religious nature.

As long as you don't cross that line, everything's fair game.

 

[Twozwozer]

I absolutely LOVE Miracles. Defying Death, Defying Gravity, Defying Time.
Miracles break all the rules.

Ive been very interested in the Super natural ever since I was little, but it was since Heroes has been on TV that it re-sparked my interest. I would love to be able to Stop Time, to be able to Fly. To concer Death. And with magic we can appear to have this.

With these "Miracles" we can break the rules and change the way people think and see the world*. My goal in life is to make a difference. And with magic, I can.

(*Maybe crossing the line can be a good thing)

Cheers, Tom

 

[MitchellStafiej]

I absolutely LOVE Miracles. Defying Death, Defying Gravity, Defying Time.
Miracles break all the rules.

Ive been very interested in the Super natural ever since I was little, but it was since Heroes has been on TV that it re-sparked my interest. I would love to be able to Stop Time, to be able to Fly. To concer Death. And with magic we can appear to have this.

With these "Miracles" we can break the rules and change the way people think and see the world*. My goal in life is to make a difference. And with magic, I can.

(*Maybe crossing the line can be a good thing)

Cheers, Tom

But what if you create false hope? You're exploiting people's emotions, you're indirectly promising something that you can never deliver.

Mitchell

 

[Twozwozer]

I don't think I'm giving them false hope. I think I'm giving them the chance to wonder what really is real and what we're all capable of doing.

Its just how you present it.

Cheers, Tom

 

[CDarklock]

But what if you create false hope?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that false hope is a positive thing, whereas false disillusion is what needs to be avoided.

It's like lying. You can lie to someone if it makes them feel better and they'll probably never discover the truth. Where it needs to be avoided is when you make them feel bad, or when the truth is likely to be discovered later.

Like these poor people who go on American Idol after all their friends and family say "wow, you're a really good singer". Then they're singing like crap on national television, and millions of people are laughing and making fun of them. That's not cool.

Screw you, American Idol rules. And Simon is hot. And I'm drunk.

 

[Steerpike]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that false hope is a positive thing, whereas false disillusion is what needs to be avoided.

It's like lying. You can lie to someone if it makes them feel better and they'll probably never discover the truth. Where it needs to be avoided is when you make them feel bad, or when the truth is likely to be discovered later.

So you'd be cool with performing a seance and telling people that you actually did contact the dead?

 

[Deryn]

I agree with Two to a certain extent. I too am fascinated with superpowers, super human abilities, etc but I can't bring myself to lay claim to having them. Maybe letting people form their own opinions, ok, but I won't stand there and say "I have super powers" without laughing my @$$ off afterwards.

I think a disclaimer before anything would appease the tension a bit. For example, Derren Brown is one who blurs the line between magic and mortality, and whatnot, but he always begins by saying things like "the things you are about to see may make you believe I have powers, I do not." It kind of washes his hands of "false advertising." He readily admits that he does not have powers, psychic abilities, etc, but what he does have is great showmanship.

He lets his audience form their own opinions knowing fully well he has no special powers.

Again, I like to perform the "shock" magic but I always wash my hands before I start.

-Deryn

 

[CDarklock]

So you'd be cool with performing a seance and telling people that you actually did contact the dead?

No, but for a completely different reason which I've discussed here before.

If you want to know exhaustively what's ethical and unethical to perform by my standards, you'll have to wait until I write a book about it, which I'm probably not going to do.

 

[OwnerM]

I go along with MitchellStafiej & CDarklock and the others who say the same thing.

We are performers. Not miracle workers. I mean, do any trick you want, that doesn't matter. What crosses the line is leaving the audience with the idea that you are special and have special powers.

Here's what I mean. I do stage hypnosis and some Derren Brown type of tricks. Whenever I do a hypnosis show I start with a disclaimer that hypnosis is nothing but concentration and suggestion. I explain that I do nothing special, and that there's nothing special in hypnosis. It's something we call do like, for instance when we watch a movie. I completely take away the "supernaturalness" of it, and yet, it still works and the audience is still amazed.

When I do tricks like PKTouch, I still do the disclaimer but I do it at the end. For example, I give this false story that people are connected via psychic systems, bullcrap, bullcrap. Then I perform the trick.

As people's mouths are gaping, that's when I tell them that everything I did and said was a lie. There are no pyschic systems and all I did was fool them. Nothing supernatural went on. I tricked them.

Their jaws drop wider.

I feel that if people use the "I have special powers" or "I caused a miracle", it cheapens the trick. By doing it this way, the audience realizes that nothing supernatural went on but I made it look like I did. So it was real, and they STILL can't figure it out.

That is true astoshiment.

 

[papercraneproductions]

I want to let everyone know that a full demo will be up soon and then you should judge if the effect crosses the line. Personally I think the effect plays more like a theatrical piece than a shock piece, it's really quite beautiful and strangely peaceful to see performed. Judge for yourself I will keep you updated.
Shaun Dunn
www.papercraneproductions.net

 

[Adrian Ehlman]

I want to let everyone know that a full demo will be up soon and then you should judge if the effect crosses the line. Personally I think the effect plays more like a theatrical piece than a shock piece, it's really quite beautiful and strangely peaceful to see performed. Judge for yourself I will keep you updated.
Shaun Dunn
www.papercraneproductions.net

As it is with this effect, it is all in how you perform it. If you go out and say you are actually having stigmata, and then perform it...then yes, that would be taking advantage of people. But, if you talk about stigmata and present it in a set, or as a stand alone theatrical piece it takes it from you making false claims to you being the entertainer or showman. I agree with Shaun Dunn in the fact that Stigmata A.D. can be a nice entertainment piece when presented.
It's all in how you present yourself, and however you do, thats the way people will percieve you. Just be smart in the effects you perform, and most importantly in their presentations.