Magical Myth Busters: Volume 2

Sep 3, 2007
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I just would hate for someone to waste time developing bad performance habits based on misinformation. (And this is something that extends FAR beyond Steer's posts.)

Brad

Well I for one am truly interested in what you feel is misinformation about the original post. For all I've seen your replies basically say he is wrong because he is inexperienced. So What is he wrong about and what is he not Right about? These are the things I've been wondering the whole time I've read this thread. Really it just seems you're disagreeing by saying "magic history" will tell you otherwise without telling us what "magic history" you're talking about.
 
Dec 14, 2007
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Ok, here goes:

Intro

Some of these myths aren’t necessarily magical, but you see them a lot in the artistic community and need to be put down. There are some things a man just has to do.

This tells me Steer believes these things to follow to be the definitive argument against these ideas. Nothing wrong with passion, but this is a tall order. If there are any flaws in his arguments, then these myths have not been "put down."

Second, and this is just a fun observation, I do not know if I have ever seen any of these issues labeled "magical maxims" or "self evident truths" by anyone other than Steer. He has told me that he based these ideas on that which he has read in forums. While these may be hot topics on one or two forums, I can assure you that on others (such as the Genii forum) or among most magicians I know - none of these would be considered universally held truths. That doesn't mean that it's not worth discussing them, but it shows me that Steer has not based his arguments on a wide berth of magical thought


(edited to content)

Myth #2: The definition of exposure is subjective.

No it isn’t.

Well, anyone who has studied linguistics or semiotics knows this statement to be ridiculous on face value. All linguistic symbols have an interpretive element, it is called connotation. When we deal with issues of philosphy or aesthetics, things only get more complicated. Here, Steer has given himself the insurmountable task of making a dogmatic claim which he must now defend.

In our discussions Steer said that this was the best definition he had found and he asked me if I had a definition of exposure which was better? I countered that his very question negated the point of this "myth busting." The notion that there can be another definitions establishes the point that the definition of exposure IS subjective. Simply because he claims otherwise does not make it so.


The definition of exposure is a tricky business, and everyone seems to want to keep the definition as flexible as possible, resulting in some rather embarrassing moments for the magic community in general.

Really? Who wants to keep it flexible? I know I don't. I know the people behind the various code of ethics for clubs don't. I know the guys at WAM didn't. Quite the contrary, magicians have spent countless hours debating this notion of exposure trying to determine exactly what is and what isn't. I do not know of ANYONE who has ever campaigned for a flexible definition. If Steer can produce evidence of a movement for this, I will concede.

Second, what embarrassing moments? I have been a subscriber to the major magic magazines for some 20 years now and cannot recall any "embarrassing moment" to the magic population coming from the exposure issue (and the nature of the definition in particular). I don't think the Becker book was embarrassing to anyone but Becker. I don't think the Poundstone book was embarrassing to anyone, not even Poundstone.

There have been controversial moments, such as the Page book. But I don't think either Page or the Magic Circle were embarrassed. They each stood their ground and it was what it was. (At least, that's what Page intimated when I was working on his interview.)

The same can be said for the Camel incident, and even the Vallerino nonsense.

So, I know of no embarrassment caused to the world of magic in general from this alleged flexibility of the definition of exposure. If Steer knows of some, he should state them.

Celebracadabra in particular has become a hot button issue now that the Chicken Littles of magic have figured out that no one’s listening anymore once they start screaming about YouTube. People are saying magic is exposed on the show even though they never actually watched it. And then when they learn about the free trick Brad Christian teaches, all bets are off. The howling and flinging of excrement begins with a fervor and vitriol seldom seen outside of a British soccer game.

Accusations of exposure are thrown at everyone and everything that displeases a magician. Criss Angel, Adam Sandler (Click), Ben Stiller (Night at the Museum), and really just about anything else that threatens a magician’s tiny microcosm of elitism in which they don’t want to share their table with anybody else. It’s obscene.

Maybe I hang with a different crowd, but the guys I know aren't talking about this. When they talk about youtube, they talk about crappy performances, not exposure. Heck, one of my best friends was responsible for most of the magic that has appeared in movies over the past decades. While some small groups of people on a couple of forums might be incensed, when you look at the magic community as a whole - you just don't see it. You don't see it on the Genii forum, you don't see it discussed at Magic Live!, and you don't read about it on the Magic Castle BBS. Steer has elevated a molehill into a mountain and has drawn conclusions from it that are in no way based on what the larger world of magic and magicians have experienced. I will not discount that there is a small demographic that he is describing, but to "put something down" there has to be something to put down. And these issues are not reflective of what many magicians are concerned about. Who is this magic elite and how are they trying to control things - and if they are the elite, why are they whining on the Ellusionist forum?

Rick Maue in his tome of wisdom and effects The Book of Haunted Magick said that exposure is “the senseless and destructive revelation of secrets with no positive magical intent.” If you can find anything about that definition you don’t like, keep in mind that you’re wrong. I’m not trying to be cute; I’m dead serious.

Really? This IS the definition of exposure then? We can poke no holes in it or find issues with it as a practical tool? Now, it would be worthy to discuss this definition. However, Steer has told us there is no point. We would be wrong in not accepting it as is.

Anyone else see a problem with this?
The reason magicians refuse to agree upon a standard definition of exposure like that is because they’re still hung up on their vendettas. Exposure is one of the worst accusations to level at another magician. Performers in general love to use it to attack those they don’t like, and in order to do that they need to keep the definition vague.

Ok, who? I know of no case where the exposure issue was used in this "vendetta" fashion. If Steer has a case to bring forth, I would love to hear it. This "vendetta" concept is his evidence for the reason the definition is kept so vague - by some secret cabal of magicians, I suppose. Who is ratifying these definitions? Did they have a meeting? Was I not invited? Who is advocating the Scarlet E to be stuck upon another's forehead? Anyone?

I found this an interesting claim. However nothing I know of in the history of our art bears this our to be a regular practice, let alone true at all.

Unfortunately, this just creates more divisiveness among the community and distracts us from dealing with real problems in a proactive manner. Internet petitions to YouTube fail every time, but every few months we get someone wasting everyone’s time by trying to resurrect the idea. FOX is going to continue airing the Masked Magician specials every few years, regardless of what a bunch of high school and college students have to say. And there’s always going to be some punk in your school who buys DVDs just to show everybody the methods in a shallow bid for attention and social status.

How about instead of sounding the klaxon every time one of these events comes up, you just practice more? I know what you’re thinking. “Alex! If people know how to do a pass, how can practicing it ever help?” I never said to practice your sleights. And if you think of asking, “What else is there?” keep in mind that you will be personally responsible for me once again attempting suicide with cheese fries and vodka.

Ok, this part get's a little iffy. Not sure what he's going for here, but if it's "don't worry about it, figure out a way to get around it" then I agree. However, I also ask, should we encourage behaviors that place roadblocks in our way rather than tear them down? I mean, a smart performer can overcome most anything, but should we shoot ourselves in the foot willingly just to prove we can hope on one foot?

THAT'S what I felt was wrong (historically) with the post.

Brad

(sorry Steer, I know you want to move on, but I wanted to show that it wasn't personal - it really was a concern with the ideas as stated.)
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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Several things you've harped on were just my attempts at being glib or funny. Obviously, they didn't work as everyone still thinks I'm a robot.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Brad, thank you for posting that.

First and foremost, it's good to know there is little resentment (or at least that there is little indented resentment). What I really liked about your response is that it made everything clear. I think that was one of the primary problems with Steerpike's original post, that it was unclear.

Fundamentally, we all seem to agree that we as performers should know how to deal with problems that arise perhaps as a result of exposure, perhaps not. We should not, however, make a point of, as you put it, "shoot[ing] ourselves in the foot willingly just to prove we can hop[sic] on one foot."

But what I am really confused about and what you address is how the hell we get there. I still don't quite understand the original argument. It would probably be good to take that section of the post back to the drawing board.

I'm trying to take something away from this and what I'm getting is that as performers, we should be more prepared. This is certainly good advice but I find that the entire rest of the post becomes irrelevant. This seems to have very little to with exposure and more to do with quality of performance.

Brad, as you said, the problem you have noticed seems to be more with the lack of quality in performance on youtube (or whatever other venue...).

It seems to be a problem in topic, more so but not instead of content.

So thanks again Mr. Henderson for bringing some clarity.

Now does Dangerous look damn sexy or what?

EDIT: And you can see what I have to say about quality of performance right here: http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?p=99537#post99537

(whoop-dee-freakin-doo).
 
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Sep 3, 2007
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Several things you've harped on were just my attempts at being glib or funny. Obviously, they didn't work as everyone still thinks I'm a robot.

I find some hint of humanity behind the robotic demeanor.


Brad, Thanks for clarifying. It definitely makes more sense to provide examples when claiming someone's wrong due to a lack of examples. Then possibly the lesson learned is that when there's no scientific or proven evidence to back up your claims they cannot be considered as a matter of fact. I do think that Steerpike's post, although insubstantial to the magic world at large, does have some relevance to many of the readers of these forums (as well as Ellusionist, most likely some others as well). I tend to agree with most of what was written in regards to the target audience. And although presented as black and white I contend that is just the style of writing/thinking he uses to "urge" the reader to consider his viewpoints.

I also want to add something that I disagree with about the Exposure quote (I guess that makes me wrong... I don't mind being wrong it makes me feel more human):

"the senseless and destructive revelation of secrets with no positive magical intent. Or, with the intention to amaze and, due to a lack of understanding and/or practice, blatantly giving away the secret behind a magical effect"
 
Sep 13, 2007
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Franklin, OH
I love how anyone who tries to present a point from their view gets it slammed in such a way that the whole thread turns into an cyber-pissing contest of galactic proportions. Ultimately, everyone will find their own truths within themselves. No one changes their mind unless they want to.
 
May 8, 2008
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Cumbria, UK
I love how anyone who tries to present a point from their view gets it slammed in such a way that the whole thread turns into an cyber-pissing contest of galactic proportions. Ultimately, everyone will find their own truths within themselves. No one changes their mind unless they want to.

lol how true
 
Dec 14, 2007
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Ender, so are you saying that anyone should be able to say anything they want, even if others know it not to be true - or not to be based on the actual history of ideas?

Where would that put us as an art? How would that help people who truly want to learn?

Truth within ourselves? So, if I believe the earth is flat and you should drink my koolaid and be picked up by a space alien who will take you to a better place - that's ok because it's my truth, right?

You assume that this is a pissing contest. Why would I, or anyone, care to be nominated the bigger pisser? Is it worth wasting ones time just be be dubbed king of the stream?

Maybe the reason people post counter arguments is because they care about magic, and they care that the people who are trying to learn end up being an asset to the art. Maybe that's why they take the time and try to point people in the right direction, even if that sometimes means pointing them away from the wrong ones.

This notion that anyone's TRUTH is some how valid is just ridiculous. In fact, when you look at history (that ugly word that scares so many) you will find that the people who embraced their own philosophical truths didn't always turn out to be the best people for those of their time.
Best,

Brad Henderson
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
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Cumbria, UK
Ender, so are you saying that anyone should be able to say anything they want, even if others know it not to be true - or not to be based on the actual history of ideas?

So are you saying that somebody saying something incorrect shouldn't be allowed to say it? How do we learn? With mistakes, that's how.

Truth within ourselves? So, if I believe the earth is flat and you should drink my koolaid and be picked up by a space alien who will take you to a better place - that's ok because it's my truth, right?
If that's what you want to believe.


You assume that this is a pissing contest. Why would I, or anyone, care to be nominated the bigger pisser? Is it worth wasting ones time just be be dubbed king of the stream?
Almost definitely, yes.


Maybe the reason people post counter arguments is because they care about magic, and they care that the people who are trying to learn end up being an asset to the art. Maybe that's why they take the time and try to point people in the right direction, even if that sometimes means pointing them away from the wrong ones.

What people should be posting isn't counter arguments, it's corrections if you ask me.

This notion that anyone's TRUTH is some how valid is just ridiculous. In fact, when you look at history (that ugly word that scares so many) you will find that the people who embraced their own philosophical truths didn't always turn out to be the best people for those of their time.

There's a reason I picked out the 'always' in your sentence.

Best,

Brad Henderson

Ah who am I kidding? It's the arguments that make forums what they are.
 
Nov 23, 2007
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Wow. This thread is still alive and kickin. I'll bet Steer never knew he was so popular.:cool:

The truth will set you Free......
 
Dec 14, 2007
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Random,

I never said people can't say wrong things - I said that when wrong things are said, they should be pointed out. If no one points them out, then no one learns.

Sometimes the nature of the thing said requires a counter argument. It is the nature of discourse.

And should my personal chosen reality potentially lead to the deaths of others (as those who choose their own reality often do) should that false reality be honored and allowed to stand without concern that others may embark on a path to destruction?

According to your reply, you would have no problem with that, correct?

As to the 'always', can you think of someone who decided to create their own philosophical reality - and things ended up hunky dory for them and their followers? Right now all the people I think of have nothing but trails of blood at their feet. (I know, it's a bigger issue than a magic discussion, but let's look at the ramifications of the "If you want to believe it, go ahead, it's all cool" school of thought.)

Brad Henderson
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
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For the record, I am not nor was I pissed off. Just found something that did not jive with what we know about the history of magic, or a lot of current thought.

People take things WAY too personally. Ideas are ideas. People are people. Different things altogether.

Brad
 
Sep 1, 2007
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(quietly decides to take his attempts at being funny out back and put them out of their misery)
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
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Cumbria, UK
Random,

I never said people can't say wrong things - I said that when wrong things are said, they should be pointed out. If no one points them out, then no one learns.

Sometimes the nature of the thing said requires a counter argument. It is the nature of discourse.

And should my personal chosen reality potentially lead to the deaths of others (as those who choose their own reality often do) should that false reality be honored and allowed to stand without concern that others may embark on a path to destruction?

According to your reply, you would have no problem with that, correct?

As to the 'always', can you think of someone who decided to create their own philosophical reality - and things ended up hunky dory for them and their followers? Right now all the people I think of have nothing but trails of blood at their feet. (I know, it's a bigger issue than a magic discussion, but let's look at the ramifications of the "If you want to believe it, go ahead, it's all cool" school of thought.)

Brad Henderson

Damn! I hate it when someone posts something that I can't think of an argument for and that person isn't me!
Tell you what, lets just leave it with an 'I'm right, you're wrong, I'm bigger than you so nyargh!'
 
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