Magics relation to cheating at cards

[WitchDocIsIn]

You don't really understand the concept of debating, do you?

Repeating yourself is not actually the same thing as proving what you're attempting to say. We're not the ones who've made the claim in dispute, you are. You say, "You can't be both a magician and a card cheat" and we say, "You're wrong." You are now obligated to prove your point, which you have not done at all. We have proved our point by giving examples of people who have done both, while you simply repeat what you said.

Yes, the timing and approach for card cheating is different than that for magic performance, but the two skills compliment each other and there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from learning both. The skills required to get away with sleights for gambling will do quite well to get away with them for magic. If anything the cheat would have the advantage of already being conditioned to do moves at times when they are most likely to get away with them, rather than the average egotistical magician who wants to get away with difficult moves while someone is staring at their hands.

Erdnase published his book on card cheating and card magic. He probably didn't make a living off magic, but he clearly performed card tricks for people and as I said, specifically references using a card manipulation technique to avoid trouble at a card game.

Madison started as a card cheat, became a professional magician for some time (publishing what, 18 books on magic?) then shifted back to training people how to cheat. He got caught once, yes, but people get caught. Even the really great ones. Just like how professional magicians will occasionally bomb a gig. The difference being that bombing at the card table means broken bones and possible death. Unless you're only cheating at the table with friends for no real stakes.

What I'd really like to see here is a response that doesn't consist of you just repeating what you've already said. Back up your statements. Show that you're actually listening and processing what's being said instead of being so pig headed you can't accept that you might be wrong.

 

[Parker Nolan]

i get caught 1 in 10 games but theres always pressure and its very hard to get away with palms and passes, any help is appreciated

That's the problem- if people know you are a magician, DO NOT use palms and passes. While these are the easiest methods of cheating, they are the easiest to spot. Use false shuffles, plain and simple. Lately, I have been playing poker with my dad and his friends, and it is always a good idea to have a football game or NASCAR race on, as they can pay attention to the TV, giving you time to quickly riffle through and find aces, then place them where you need them. Just turn on the TV, and let it do your misdirection. Make your shuffles look real.

 

[Alex Art]

You don't really understand the concept of debating, do you?

Repeating yourself is not actually the same thing as proving what you're attempting to say. We're not the ones who've made the claim in dispute, you are. You say, "You can't be both a magician and a card cheat" and we say, "You're wrong." You are now obligated to prove your point, which you have not done at all. We have proved our point by giving examples of people who have done both, while you simply repeat what you said.

Yes, the timing and approach for card cheating is different than that for magic performance, but the two skills compliment each other and there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from learning both. The skills required to get away with sleights for gambling will do quite well to get away with them for magic. If anything the cheat would have the advantage of already being conditioned to do moves at times when they are most likely to get away with them, rather than the average egotistical magician who wants to get away with difficult moves while someone is staring at their hands.

Erdnase published his book on card cheating and card magic. He probably didn't make a living off magic, but he clearly performed card tricks for people and as I said, specifically references using a card manipulation technique to avoid trouble at a card game.

Madison started as a card cheat, became a professional magician for some time (publishing what, 18 books on magic?) then shifted back to training people how to cheat. He got caught once, yes, but people get caught. Even the really great ones. Just like how professional magicians will occasionally bomb a gig. The difference being that bombing at the card table means broken bones and possible death. Unless you're only cheating at the table with friends for no real stakes.

What I'd really like to see here is a response that doesn't consist of you just repeating what you've already said. Back up your statements. Show that you're actually listening and processing what's being said instead of being so pig headed you can't accept that you might be wrong.

I might be wrong or i might not be. But i cant imagine, due to mine "limited imagination", someone performing card manipulation and at the end saying something like: "Hey, why dont we play some poker or black jack? I promise i won`t cheat!!!" Or someone after winning the poker game going: "Oh it just a game!!! Don`t be upset let me show you a card trick!!!"

I might be wrong but Madison never was a card cheat. He advertises it pretty well. But common his botoms and second far from perfect. And to take them to the card table is suicide. There other points that don`t add up in his cheater career. But its his business, he selling decks and selling "gambling moves". It works fine for him and doesnt bother me.

Erdnase. Whould you write a book about card cheating if you never done it? Whould you write a book about something, you know nothing about? In imaginary world - yes why not. But will it survive hundred years and still be considered a bible of a card cheat? I trully believe that he was a cheat and not a magician.

Now i think i know the part we dont understant, each other. Who do you consider a good magician? Some one who knows a glide and double lift? You can get hours of performance time and some of the tricks are extrimely entertaing. And you can be considered a good magician. Who i consider a good card cheat, well how to say it, he is good, he never got caught and noone knows that he is card cheat.

I`m not debating that anyone who mastered gambling technics, can`t perfome magic. I dabating the approach that one takes to become good card cheat. Sorry for repeating myself but you can`t do both. For a cheat its a professional suicide, and for magician just waste of time.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I might be wrong or i might not be. But i cant imagine, due to mine "limited imagination", someone performing card manipulation and at the end saying something like: "Hey, why dont we play some poker or black jack? I promise i won`t cheat!!!" Or someone after winning the poker game going: "Oh it just a game!!! Don`t be upset let me show you a card trick!!!"

I might be wrong but Madison never was a card cheat. He advertises it pretty well. But common his botoms and second far from perfect. And to take them to the card table is suicide. There other points that don`t add up in his cheater career. But its his business, he selling decks and selling "gambling moves". It works fine for him and doesnt bother me.

Erdnase. Whould you write a book about card cheating if you never done it? Whould you write a book about something, you know nothing about? In imaginary world - yes why not. But will it survive hundred years and still be considered a bible of a card cheat? I trully believe that he was a cheat and not a magician.

Now i think i know the part we dont understant, each other. Who do you consider a good magician? Some one who knows a glide and double lift? You can get hours of performance time and some of the tricks are extrimely entertaing. And you can be considered a good magician. Who i consider a good card cheat, well how to say it, he is good, he never got caught and noone knows that he is card cheat.

I`m not debating that anyone who mastered gambling technics, can`t perfome magic. I dabating the approach that one takes to become good card cheat. Sorry for repeating myself but you can`t do both. For a cheat its a professional suicide, and for magician just waste of time.

You are just repeating yourself, not bringing anything new to the table. Give me one good reason someone can't become a good card cheat and then become a good magician, or vice versa?

I've already said that the only time this would be bad is when at the card table. But what is to stop anyone from cheating a poker game one day, then doing a magic show the next? Nothing.

Furthermore, Penn Jillette had this to say of DM's bottom deal, "The move he did, I have seen people do it that well, but I have never seen anyone do it better." That includes a man who spent 14 years of his life in prison practicing every day.

You can't imagine anyone doing these things because your thinking in this instance is extremely limited. You are assuming when I say someone can be both a magician and a card cheat, I'm referring to doing these things at the same time. Even that is debatable considering how many times I've been invited to poker games after performing card magic.

You said it yourself. Why would Erdnase write a book about something he didn't know? Half the book you're referencing is magic!

Unless you can come up with something new to say I'm done with this conversation. I really dislike repeating myself.

 

[TeeDee]

Erdnase. Whould you write a book about card cheating if you never done it? Whould you write a book about something, you know nothing about? In imaginary world - yes why not. But will it survive hundred years and still be considered a bible of a card cheat? I trully believe that he was a cheat and not a magician.

Sorry to chip back in again, but I think there's a slight flaw in the argument here.

You argue that Erdnase couldn't be a magician because he's written a well-respected book on card cheating techniques. We can take it, then, that you're suggesting that a similar argument would hold for anyone else who's written a well-respected book on cheating techniques. Based on that, we must assume that Robert-Houdin, John Nevil Maskelyne, Michael MacDougall, John Scarne, Ed Marlo and Dai Vernon also were not magicians but, in fact, card cheats, by virtue of their having written authoritative works on advantage play. That seems to be untenable.

 

[Alex Art]

Sorry to chip back in again, but I think there's a slight flaw in the argument here.

You argue that Erdnase couldn't be a magician because he's written a well-respected book on card cheating techniques. We can take it, then, that you're suggesting that a similar argument would hold for anyone else who's written a well-respected book on cheating techniques. Based on that, we must assume that Robert-Houdin, John Nevil Maskelyne, Michael MacDougall, John Scarne, Ed Marlo and Dai Vernon also were not magicians but, in fact, card cheats, by virtue of their having written authoritative works on advantage play. That seems to be untenable.

I see what you mean. But Erdnase was not describing the techniques from the point of magic performance. He was talking about them from the point of a card cheat. I am not familiar the work of Robert-Houdin, John Nevil Maskelyne, Michael MacDougall, John Scarne. But the other two wrote the books based on magical performances. Most of the moves to card magic came from card table, and lots of people put lots of work to adapt them to magical performances. Magician is a performer, who uses techniques to amaze to get reaction. Card cheat should never be suspected of any skill. If card cheat is a magician, then magician is a card cheat. But for me it doesn`t add up.

 

[Alex Art]

I've already said that the only time this would be bad is when at the card table. But what is to stop anyone from cheating a poker game one day, then doing a magic show the next?

You put a guy, lets say for couple of grand out of his pocket at the card table. Next day he comes at your show. What do you think his reaction would be?

All i can say do both, but for me its just waste of time. Jack of all trades master of none.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

You put a guy, lets say for couple of grand out of his pocket at the card table. Next day he comes at your show. What do you think his reaction would be?

All i can say do both, but for me its just waste of time. Jack of all trades master of none.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean a show where I do mostly card magic. He may well never play cards with me before. But considering I've done card magic for people and been summarily invited to a poker game by those same people, I have to posit the theory that maybe it's just how you imagine a card magician has to perform.

There's a drastic difference between doing gambling demonstrations, for instance, and doing magic that happens to use cards. My most popular tricks with cards probably wouldn't make much of a stir, honestly. I don't go in for skill displays.

You're dealing in absolutes and that's extremely limiting. I recommend you just take a breath and see if you can't possibly expand your ideas a bit.

 

[Alex Art]

You're dealing in absolutes and that's extremely limiting. I recommend you just take a breath and see if you can't possibly expand your ideas a bit.

I not intrested in magical presentation, and other show off business. All i am interested is a technique. And that techique comes from a table and not from card performer. If cheater does a move it 100% accurate, simply perfect. None of the magician can stand close to the same level of execution.

I`m looking for the perfection and not the ordinary. If some think that limiting. Its their opinion. They are entitle to it.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I not intrested in magical presentation, and other show off business. All i am interested is a technique. And that techique comes from a table and not from card performer. If cheater does a move it 100% accurate, simply perfect. None of the magician can stand close to the same level of execution.

I`m looking for the perfection and not the ordinary. If some think that limiting. Its their opinion. They are entitle to it.

And because someone is a magician they are incapable of gaining that level of skill? That's just absurdity.

Charlie Miller, Richard Turner, Erdnase, Dai Vernon, Ed Marlo, Ricky Jay .. all of these guys learned from the best card cheats in the country, and then did magic. Jason England is a recognized expert on card techniques and he's a magician.

Again, you're being extremely narrow in your thinking and it's going to limit your abilities.

 

[JasonEngland]

Alex,

The problem with your claim is that several names immediately spring to mind that are still alive that refute it. Just because you aren't familiar with them or can list them yourself doesn't mean they don't exist.

Here's a few that are no longer with us:

Willis Kinney
Francis Carlyle
Floyd Moss
Tony Giorgio
Paul Chosse

All of these men cheated at cards on many occasions and were also all excellent and accomplished magicians, even if they weren't all professional magicians (although Giorgio and Carlyle certainly were).

I could list just as many names today that are considered excellent magicians (pro or am) and that have cheated at cards for serious money on more than one occasion. Some of these names you would recognize, some you wouldn't.

But regardless, your theory that you can't do both is blown out of the water by the existence of people that have done both!

Jason

PS: Erdnase was almost certainly NOT a cheater or a magician. He may have cheated once or twice in his life and he clearly had done a card trick or two, but his language is exclusionary of both groups and there are lots of reasons to believe he didn't belong to either group in a serious way.

 

[TeeDee]

PS: Erdnase was almost certainly NOT a cheater or a magician. He may have cheated once or twice in his life and he clearly had done a card trick or two, but his language is exclusionary of both groups and there are lots of reasons to believe he didn't belong to either group in a serious way.

Cool. That's the theory I've been coming round to recently, so glad I've got authoritative support for my thinking! I think it's hard to get away from the idea that Erdnase was basically an enthusiastic sleight-of-hand hobbyist who hung around in the right places in Chicago to meet people like John Philip Quinn, August Roterberg and John Mushmouth Johnson, but didn't rely on magic or cheating to make a living.

 

[Alex Art]

Alex,

The problem with your claim is that several names immediately spring to mind that are still alive that refute it. Just because you aren't familiar with them or can list them yourself doesn't mean they don't exist.

Here's a few that are no longer with us:

Willis Kinney
Francis Carlyle
Floyd Moss
Tony Giorgio
Paul Chosse

All of these men cheated at cards on many occasions and were also all excellent and accomplished magicians, even if they weren't all professional magicians (although Giorgio and Carlyle certainly were).

I could list just as many names today that are considered excellent magicians (pro or am) and that have cheated at cards for serious money on more than one occasion. Some of these names you would recognize, some you wouldn't.

But regardless, your theory that you can't do both is blown out of the water by the existence of people that have done both!

Jason

PS: Erdnase was almost certainly NOT a cheater or a magician. He may have cheated once or twice in his life and he clearly had done a card trick or two, but his language is exclusionary of both groups and there are lots of reasons to believe he didn't belong to either group in a serious way.

Thanks for explaining. Literature on this topic is very difficult to find or it feels like it very well hidden. I will definitely look into names you mention. Floyd Moss "Card Cheats – How They Operate" one that i was looking for for year or so now with no success.

 

[c.t]

Yes i do. You brought to the table the names of Daniel Madison and S W Erdnase. I dont think Madison was a good card cheat. Card cheat yes, but not good otherwise he would not got caught. But even now i dont think he calls himself a magician. Deception artist i think it is. No one 100% knows who S W Erdnase was. But he definitely got lots of inside about card cheating, where his card magic section feels to me a bit out of place.

I trying to explain myself to my best knowlage. If you are not happy with the way i do it, there are hundred and one way to say it nice, instead of being arrogant.

Can you please point me where i used myself as an example.

If you treat other peoples opinion as bull*** expect same back. I might be wrong but you have not make a single point but only bashed mine.

You being a beginer yourself. Your knowlage greater then mine. So is your arrogance.

I think you knew what i meant about cups and balls.

Madison got caught when he was 17, he got started at 15, possibly a bit foolish to play in an underground game but if you watch any recent videos by him i recommend DEAL or GREEN, you would possibly have a bit more knowledge on his skill level.
Expert at the card table originally wasnt going to have any card magic at all but he put a few in just to gain the business of magicians as well as cheats so for all we know he couldve been as much of a magician as he was cheat, but thats very unlikely.

 

[Steerpike]

neither did you.

The burden of proof is not on me. You made the original claim, which is in dispute, so it is your responsibility to prove your point against criticism. That's how debate works. If I had made a claim first and you disputed it, I would have already type an essay explaining myself. That would be my obligation. But again, the claim in question is yours so in this case you have the burden of proof.

No the skill but the approach.

Same difference. How one acts is part of the skill set.

it does not cost much to be nice.

This is one of those cases where a firm hand is called for.

Trying to shot two birds with same gun won`t work.

What if I have 2 bullets?

I am not familiar with you repertoire. What and from where you pulling thing none of mine business.

Nice dodge. The point was that you shouldn't assume everyone else is as inexperienced as you are.

Try to be nicer and i might think about it.

You're not in a position to negotiate.

I not intrested in magical presentation, and other show off business. All i am interested is a technique.

This answers a lot of my questions right here.

 

[JasonEngland]

Expert at the card table originally wasnt going to have any card magic at all but he put a few in just to gain the business of magicians as well as cheats so for all we know he couldve been as much of a magician as he was cheat, but thats very unlikely.

There isn't a shred of evidence for the claim that the book originally wasn't going to have any card magic at all. We know absolutely nothing of the author's early intentions.

There is also zero evidence that he was ever a cheater (or a magician for that matter). He clearly knew something about both worlds, but whether he ever participated in either is not something we have any real evidence for.

Jason

 

[Alex Art]

Madison got caught when he was 17, he got started at 15, possibly a bit foolish to play in an underground game but if you watch any recent videos by him i recommend DEAL or GREEN, you would possibly have a bit more knowledge on his skill level.
Expert at the card table originally wasnt going to have any card magic at all but he put a few in just to gain the business of magicians as well as cheats so for all we know he couldve been as much of a magician as he was cheat, but thats very unlikely.

Madison moves look too theatrical. They look too fishy, though you dont see anything but it gives you reason for suspect. Also his advice on dealing second, in one of his Revelations, not to worry about size of the brief, just to cover it with a tilt, seems odd to me. He didn`t fool Penn and Teller with his bottoms. I would personally get Jeff Lianza DVD over Madison one. At list Jeffs moves looks open and natural.

 

[Alex Art]

Jason, i know it out of the topic, your avatar states "card mechanic", do you consider yourself a magician or "card mechanic"?

 

[Steerpike]

Madison moves look too theatrical. They look too fishy, though you dont see anything but it gives you reason for suspect.

Well now, this begs a question. Your assertion is that Daniel is too flashy and this would come across suspect at the card table. This implies that you understand that cheating at the card table requires subtlety. You know this. And I know this. In fact, I would guess that any schmuck with two brain cells to rub together could figure this out. So the question then is, why do you not believe Daniel would have thought of this?

He didn`t fool Penn and Teller with his bottoms.

You actually think the ability to fool magicians is a good metric of skill? Dude, fooling magicians requires an entirely different thought process than misdirecting a spectator. And besides that, Penn and Teller are two of the smartest guys in the industry with decades of experience between them. That's why it seems so impressive.

 

[Alex Art]

Well now, this begs a question. Your assertion is that Daniel is too flashy and this would come across suspect at the card table. This implies that you understand that cheating at the card table requires subtlety. You know this. And I know this. In fact, I would guess that any schmuck with two brain cells to rub together could figure this out. So the question then is, why do you not believe Daniel would have thought of this?

You actually think the ability to fool magicians is a good metric of skill? Dude, fooling magicians requires an entirely different thought process than misdirecting a spectator. And besides that, Penn and Teller are two of the smartest guys in the industry with decades of experience between them. That's why it seems so impressive.

Can you please point me to some videos of your card work, preferably with shuffles and deals, otherwise you just trolling this part of the forum. For a professional filmmaker it should not be that difficult.