Old Timer Magicians

[ninja]

Like I've said before... **** the old guys.

What?
think about it when your older do you want to be looked up to and respected or have some kid say **** you.

That is how it is going to be if todays society continues as it is, i mean look at some people in your neighborhood, in mine there are little kids in like 4th grade cursing at other people and there parents and it is just horrible, and it seems to me that you are the same.

Look at chris kenner he is highly respected and he is like 400 billion years old .

 

[Ben Long]

What?
think about it when your older do you want to be looked up to and respected or have some kid say **** you.

That is how it is going to be if todays society continues as it is, i mean look at some people in your neighborhood, in mine there are little kids in like 4th grade cursing at other people and there parents and it is just horrible, and it seems to me that you are the same.

Look at chris kenner he is highly respected and he is like 400 billion years old .QUOTE]

Hear, hear!

 

[James Wise Magic]

All I'll say is Dai Vernon's handling of 3CM is better than most of the tricks I see on E. All tricks can be updated to be congruent with the times. Magic doesn't always have to be hardcore surgical visual penetration with fire and blood.

Da Vanci will always be more of an artist in my mind than Warhol (nothing against Campbell's Soup).

If you want magic to grow as an art form, treat it as an art form ("artform" is two words, by the way).

Vernon sure didn't treat magic as a novelty. Ricky Jay doesn't. Paul Harris doesn't. Chris Kenner sure as hell doesn't.

Most stuff on TV is turned into a cheap novelty, by the way, but, David Blaine isn't. So that pretty much kills that argument (although Criss Angel is not helping my case).

Alright. Crazy awesome. I hope I don't get in trouble for double posting...

No that didn't kill this argument. And thanks for the grammatical error.

Yes Chris Kenner, vernon and serveral others have't treated magic like a cheap novelty BUT you're forgetting something. To the laymen, the non- magicians, to the audience it seems to THEM that it's just a cheap novelty, yes they can enjoy it and not know how the hell they do it but to them, it's nothing too big. You know? As magicians we can appreciate the "old timers" because of the help that they have done for magic, but to the spectators, their just "another" magician. And that's not good for our art.

 

[Ben Long]

No that didn't kill this argument. And thanks for the grammatical error.

Yes Chris Kenner, Vernon and several others haven't treated magic like a cheap novelty BUT you're forgetting something. To the laymen, the non- magicians, to the audience it seems to THEM that it's just a cheap novelty, yes they can enjoy it and not know how the hell they do it but to them, it's nothing too big. You know? As magicians we can appreciate the "old timers" because of the help that they have done for magic, but to the spectators, their just "another" magician. And that's not good for our art.

So then would that mean that it is bad for Jazz when Ellis Marsalis plays piano? Is it bad for classical music when Steve Reich composes a new symphony? Is it bad for the art of cinema when Martin Scorsese directs a new film?

I mean Francis Ford Coppola just made a new movie and it was crap, but people other than just other directors recognize him for "The Godfather" and "Apocalypse Now."

Laymen aren't stupid. Just like we know when something is bad or cheesy, they know. If we recognize a good magician, they will too.

I'm willing to not rule out the possibility that certain older magicians are perhaps too old to perform as well as they used to, but it is in no way detrimental to our art form. I've seen musicians like Fats Domino who is clearly not at his prime, and I can still admire his pure artifice on the piano without being a musician myself.

I know when I see a musician who is not as good as he or she once was, but I still admire what they did for the art and their devotion to it.

That's no crime.

 

[CoryOOreo]

Guys,

I'd like to apologize for what I said this morning... I could have found a much better way to get the message across. I'm not going to spit out any excuses.

However, do I really deserve to be slammed for having an opinion? Yes, this is the way I see magic. No, this is not the way I expect everyone to see it.... I have my fair share of experience in this art, and this is a valid opinion I have formed over plenty of time. Please don't think that I'm just some kid who loves Criss Angel, and thinks I'm the next best street magician. I have to admit that I feel a little small at the moment... It's definitely not that fun to be told you are an "ellusionist generation" magician by one of your idols. So please, respect.

 

[ninja]

Thanks for apologizing and yes you are aloud to have an opinion but if you present your opinion so disrespectfully you do deserve to be slammed, and it will make people think of how you treat your spectators but i am sure that your not like that to them(at least i hope not)

 

[harapanong]

James1Wise:

I hope you can give some evidence of the laymen public viewing magic as a "cheap novelty". I would like to hear some, thanks.

dorkymagician:

The reason why "old timers" don't respect youths, like mentioned, is because we don't give them any too. We call them "cheesy", "corny", "unable to adapt to the future" and many others. Why should they give respect to any of us who insult them in this manner?

My belief is that "old timers" do wish to help out among youths. If you approach them with a good, positive attitude towards learning magic, why would they despise you?

Sergey:

Adding "old timers" to the Theory11 team isn't just out of respect. I believe it can add value to the site by having them here, because they are able to provide insights on how magic has progressed over time, and therefore can have insights on how magic can continue to improve and grow in the future.

Besides, Theory11 should attempt to unite all magicians, old and young, on one site where they share stuff together. Get the young to learn from the old, and get the old to think about the future of the young ones.

There's a chinese saying that goes: "Bi Men Zhao Ce", which means "trying to build a chariot while locked up in a room". What I was afraid of, was that we are locking ourselves up in this community, trying to improve magic without knowing what's outside, and what's been done before. How can we build a chariot if we are locked up in a room, never having even seen what a chariot looks like?

Let's all keep discussion level headed. Mr Landels is entitled to his opinion, but again, we are entitled to our own when we disagree with him.

To keep the spirit of "old timers" alive, here's one more video of Richard Turner.

Read up on his biography - he is known to be the most skillful card cheat and sleight of hand artist, and he's BLIND. Impressive, eh? That's dedication to the art for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlUdkWCZgq4

- harapan. magic!

 

[Nate Malini]

Guys,

I'd like to apologize for what I said this morning... I could have found a much better way to get the message across. I'm not going to spit out any excuses.

However, do I really deserve to be slammed for having an opinion? Yes, this is the way I see magic. No, this is not the way I expect everyone to see it.... I have my fair share of experience in this art, and this is a valid opinion I have formed over plenty of time. Please don't think that I'm just some kid who loves Criss Angel, and thinks I'm the next best street magician. I have to admit that I feel a little small at the moment... It's definitely not that fun to be told you are an "ellusionist generation" magician by one of your idols. So please, respect.

We should forgive Cory Landels his Experience and card magic speaks for its self.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2EXmDMCAlE

 

[copperfield 14]

Is it just me or has the thread gone off topic. Wasn't this thread about theory11 having some old magicians as artists? Oh well, I may have not gotten enough sleep so don't bash me for saying something wrong. Poor Cory.

 

[Nate Malini]

Is it just me or has the thread gone off topic. Wasn't this thread about theory11 having some old magicians as artists? Oh well, I may have not gotten enough sleep so don't bash me for saying something wrong. Poor Cory.

your right Copperfield. Back to topic. Now what is a "Old Timer"

1) is it a magician over 30?
2) is it a magician that has made up a move or trick thats still used today?
3) is it a magician that is wiil known?

 

[Tyler Johnson]

Denny Haney once performed sponge bunnies for me a few ears ago, and I was almost in tears it was that funny. And so was everyone else in the shop too. That's the way he's been performing it for years, and it's shows in a good way. To make that statement that CK made is perhaps speaking for a few, and cannot be made of all "old timers". Just like a lot of the "card punks" that seem to be around this day and age help make up the opinion of older magicians for ALL kids. That is not fair for either group. Then again, is seperating the "old timers" versus the "card punks" helping anyone? It sure isn't hurting the greats in this art, but sadly the same can't be said for the younger generation. I think a lot of the younger kids are missing out on lots of knowledge by eliminating the "old timers" from their collection of T11 and Ellusionist dvds....

It is true that there are some very good old performances out there. My point is, a lot of them don't apply to people of this day and age. So much is different now than it used to be, which is something my grandfather has said often. I mean, 8 girls beat up a girl, not like in a cat fight, but actually punching the crap out of her. Think of how girls acted a hundred years ago. Things are different today. People receive things different. Personally, I like watching the old guys. It's great to see where we came from and see their performances. But the public today is looking for a performance of something more modern. They aren't looking for a performance like Dia Vernon or anyone else, because they don't even know who they are. Understand, I completely respect the old timers. I just don't think todays public does because they don't know about the old timers.

How can one say not to use their performance ideas or presentations?? I've been using Max Malini's presentation for the Malini Egg Bag and IT KILLS! The Don Alan chop cup routine is a classic in magic, and IT KILLS! These are all presentations from "old timers" and you know what...they were developed for REAL PEOPLE and to be performed in front of lay audiences in PERFORMING VENUES. Not the "new" stuff today that is more like hit and run magic, where the proper routining isn't anywhere close to where it should be. Today it seems, the "cool" thing to do is stalk someone on the "street" and show them 30 seconds of magic and call it a show.

Well, I should have clarified my position more. I don't think it's good to use anyones presentation or performance! This is not an attack on you Steve, or anyone else. I just think it's better to be yourself when performing, instead of performing like someone else. I hate it when I see people perform Subway (used that cause there are tons of videos of it) and present it just like Dan & Dave and say the things Dan & Dave say when they perform it. I think, as a performer, to make something your own you need to change it to fit you. I mean, I perform Subway completely different than Dan & Dave, even the handling. So, know this isn't attack against the old timers. I really do respect them and actually use a lot of their methods for tricks.

Just a side note, I don't own any Ellusionist DVD, nor have I ever. I don't even use or know any of their tricks. Also, I don't do hit and run/street magic, I have lots of long routines. Anyway, peace!

Tyler

 

[Jakeh]

I was just watching some clips of Dai Vernon and I've come to the conclusion that, yes, it may appear out-dated and not so "cool" as, say, Daniel Madison doing backflips with a card in his mouth with black and white editing, but it is still, in it's own right, much more magical than most "new" things.

I thoroughly respect the older generation in magic. Heck, I respect old people in general. They've lived and done so much more than we have. We can learn a hell of a lot more from them compared to an E DVD or something.

 

[CoryOOreo]

We should forgive Cory Landels his Experience and card magic speaks for its self.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2EXmDMCAlE

Woooah. I can say with complete honesty that THIS IS NOT ME! Read the video description before you jump to any conclusions -This is my performance of an effect created by a friend of mine named Cory Landels, creator of Spirit Notes. I would like to apologize for the excessive movement, my hands were stuttering ;]

See, this is a friend of mine who really wanted to post a video of an effect I created a couple of years ago. If you want to see some of my magic, please check out the following videos...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYdFo6RIu84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qElJX_nmIwQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tdoh4Yl3tA

 

[2ndDeal]

Nate Malini asked a good question. When does one became old magician?

I would like to enlarge that to
What is old magic?
What is the difference between old and new magic?

I don't think that magic can be divided to old and new. I believe that people's view of magic hasn't changed that much after all.

 

[Nate Malini]

Woooah. I can say with complete honesty that THIS IS NOT ME! Read the video description before you jump to any conclusions -This is my performance of an effect created by a friend of mine named Cory Landels, creator of Spirit Notes. I would like to apologize for the excessive movement, my hands were stuttering ;]

See, this is a friend of mine who really wanted to post a video of an effect I created a couple of years ago. If you want to see some of my magic, please check out the following videos...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYdFo6RIu84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qElJX_nmIwQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tdoh4Yl3tA

Nice.....sorry about that.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Cory should man up and remove any techniques, tricks, or ideas that stem from the contribution of "old timers." No double lifts, passes, controls, forces. No color changes. Retention Vanishes are gone. No Roth for you. No Ammar.

Heck Paul Harris is no spring chicken. No more DVDs of his - or the people who he produces/has produced. Without that "old timer" would you have had the DG projects? Jay Sankey is getting up there. Bye bye paper clipped. How old is Greg Wilson? Definitely not in his 20's that's for sure. Heck, who are you left with - Dan Army?

I would love to see Corey's repertoire consisting only of ideas of the now, or ideas of the future. Nothing from the past. If it touched the hand of an "old timer" or heaven forbid someone who had the incredibly un-hip idea to DIE, then it's off limits to Cory. (There goes the blind riffle you used in the second clip. There goes the rub a dub in the third. There goes the whole effect of the third. There goes the splitting concept in the first....did you know that every one of those effects you did has a better handling - all done by old timers?)

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know that sounds harsh, but somethings are so utterly ridiculous they don't deserve a free pass.

Brad Henderson

 

[Nate Malini]

Cory should man up and remove any techniques, tricks, or ideas that stem from the contribution of "old timers." No double lifts, passes, controls, forces. No color changes. Retention Vanishes are gone. No Roth for you. No Ammar.

Heck Paul Harris is no spring chicken. No more DVDs of his - or the people who he produces/has produced. Without that "old timer" would you have had the DG projects? Jay Sankey is getting up there. Bye bye paper clipped. How old is Greg Wilson? Definitely not in his 20's that's for sure. Heck, who are you left with - Dan Army?

I would love to see Corey's repertoire consisting only of ideas of the now, or ideas of the future. Nothing from the past. If it touched the hand of an "old timer" or heaven forbid someone who had the incredibly un-hip idea to DIE, then it's off limits to Cory. (There goes the blind riffle you used in the second clip. There goes the rub a dub in the third. There goes the whole effect of the third. There goes the splitting concept in the first....did you know that every one of those effects you did has a better handling - all done by old timers?)

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know that sounds harsh, but somethings are so utterly ridiculous they don't deserve a free pass.

Brad Henderson

Whats up Brad? hows books?........The guy who came up with the Le paul spread Paul Le Paul was born in 1900, thats an old one Corey has down packed. maybe he dont know its not a Dan And Dave move.

 

[Tyler Johnson]

Alright guys, enough sarcasm, I'm sure Corey gets the point and remember that he APOLOGIZED. Don't you dare say, "It's to late to apologize..." (Apologize - OneRepublic reference).

Tyler

 

[harapanong]

Let's all stop attacking Mr Landels. This thread isn't about flaming anyone.

Here's a clip of Allan Ackerman, known as the "Las Vegas Card Expert" among magicians. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAwJp0jPR4

- harapan. magic!

 

[Ben Long]

Yeah, hey, let's all just get back to the magic.

Be cool.