Refine Theory11?

[chris311]

To everyone,

I have followed this website since its launch several months ago and I must say that I am fairly impressed so far. Lately however, I have seen things on this site that have concerned me and I feel that now is the appropriate time to voice these concerns.

Magicians like Chris Kenner, Lee Asher, Wayne Houchin, JB, Aaron Fisher and the rest of the Theory 11 artists are experts in the various fields of magic. They have dedicated countless hours the art, not only through creating effects but also by making themselves available on this site. Do them, and us, a favour and stop filling these forums with useless posts and homemade budget videos shot with poor cameras. When you do these things, it detracts from the credibility of the site. Do you actually think that a poor video or a ridiculous forum post belongs on a site that was created by some of the finest names in magic?

Of course, what I have just written is purely subjective. However, can one argue that a 10th post on how many Wynn's you purchased, a 20th post on who the best magician in the world is and a 30th post on what type of cards are best to use is actually advancing magic? The answer to this is obvious. A professor of mine once said in lecture that "There are no stupid questions". I could not disagree with this statement more.

Some people on this forum may concur with my views, since I have seen threads that discuss issues which I have raised. Conversely, some of you will naturally disagree with my argument. All I ask is that this site be refined. Leave out the useless posts and videos. You are a rational human being. Act that way.

I have been researching for my graduate thesis throughout the day. I should have written more in this post however I have now grown tired writing. Take what I have said into consideration. Refine this site.

Peace

Chris

 

[MattTarrant]

I agree completely Chris,

Im constantly sick of some of the threads on this site, and it really does take away from the quality of the site.

I think it has a lot to do with the age of the posters...

 

[clllllust]

Hey Chris,

I completely agree with your post and that this site is amazing and is highly credible magic community.

I see all of the posts made on this site, and the one's that are deleted. There is a lot of "refining" going around, it's just that you don't see it.

It is also hard to stop people from posting videos, even if they are bad quality since it's not our right to delete a post if the person is not "good". Beginners come to this site for help and tips on their performances from some of the best.

So, refining a site is hard because we want to help every demographic of person, and it is simply not possible to do that if things like so-so performances pop-up around the forum.

Personally, I think what we have here is amazing. I've never met so many interesting people and never have had a chance to apart of a great community.

So, with that said hopefully I answered a few of your questions, and I'm quite curious to see everyone else's feedback

-RA69

 

[S3al]

Agreed, If I see any more posts about cards my head will explode.

Also, if we get an off topic forum, a lot of this stuff will fade a way. Thats what the big problem is.

 

[CDarklock]

However, can one argue that a 10th post on how many Wynn's you purchased, a 20th post on who the best magician in the world is and a 30th post on what type of cards are best to use is actually advancing magic?

No, but one could argue that denying people the opportunity to simply socialise with one another is destructive to any community.

You can't advance the art of magic with a bunch of people you don't know. Let people get to know one another. Yes, most of the discussion here will not advance the art of magic; that's natural and normal, because growing the state of the art is hard.

Art is like a flower. You can't make a flower grow. You just have to create the right conditions so the flower can grow, then get out of the way and wait.

 

[chris311]

If I had it my way, I would create some sort of short quiz that prospective members would have to take before creating an account on Theory11. Nathan Kranzo and Derren Brown do this on their websites before you purchase an item. This may be a little bit too much for this site, however I believe that it is a fairly good idea. It will weed out the people who are not serious about magic and force the people who are serious to do some sort of background research on the basics of magic if they do not know the answers.

Chris

 

[darosa.justin]

I completley agree.

There are sometimes really pointless and stupid, or senseless posts on this forum. However, with that said, it's not like we can do anything about it.

You can't change the way people talk, or what they post and because of this it is hard to refine this site.

 

[Phenomena]

you will only see these annoying topics more and more as time goes on, as ive been always saying, theres only so much u can talk about in magic before it starts repeating

an off topic forum is needed pronto...
as there is an infinite amount of discussion compared to just magic

 

[Ben Long]

There are no stupid questions, but there are sure a hell of a lot of inquisitive idiots...heheh...

 

[Steerpike]

If I had it my way, I would create some sort of short quiz that prospective members would have to take before creating an account on Theory11. Nathan Kranzo and Derren Brown do this on their websites before you purchase an item. This may be a little bit too much for this site, however I believe that it is a fairly good idea. It will weed out the people who are not serious about magic and force the people who are serious to do some sort of background research on the basics of magic if they do not know the answers.

Chris

I'm now convinced that you have completely forgotten what it was like to be a beginner.

 

[chris311]

I'm now convinced that you have completely forgotten what it was like to be a beginner.

Really? How so? Surely you cannot say that you are convinced that I have "forgotten" what it is like to be a beginner without providing an explanation.

In fact, I remember it perfectly. After I met David Copperfield in 1991, I made sure that my parents took my to the library so that I could read about the history and art of magic. I was still a very young boy of course, but I tried to read as much as possible before practicing any effects. If there is one thing that I have believed in throughout my life, it is that any person looking to engage in a new hobby or interest should know at least something about it before beginning.

All I am trying to say here is that the magicians/artists that created this site are far to good to have mind numbing posts and videos clogging up the forums. Yes, there are beginners here. That's fine. In fact, we all know that Chris Kenner has said that he takes pleasure in helping the youth of magic. However, I am certain that someone like Chris Kenner for that matter would probably not want his name nor his work attached to a post entitled "Hey...look how funny I am in this video", "What is a double lift?", or "Who is Dai Vernon?". Here is a perfect example of what I mean. http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=4476 . These questions/videos are too elementary and immature to be on a site like this.

Hopefully, magicians on this forum will know exactly what I mean. From what I have read above, it looks as if I have people on my side.

 

[Mitch.Conroy]

Chris I hear what you are saying, and to an extent you are right. But I am a little ticked at the fact that you think that making a post like this would encourage people to "grow up" and be more mature about the content of the forums. This entire topic is the representation of what you are trying to stop. Because all that you are doing is ruffling feathers to people that may not have the information or may want to bring different insight here. If you have a problem with the content of these forums. PM a mod and stop wasting space here ranting and raving about things that do not need to be brought up in public.

Lead by example.

Mitch.Conroy

P.S. The video that you provided as an example in you last couple of post was funny as hell.

 

[chris311]

Chris I hear what you are saying, and to an extent you are right. But I am a little ticked at the fact that you think that making a post like this would encourage people to "grow up" and be more mature about the content of the forums. This entire topic is the representation of what you are trying to stop. Because all that you are doing is ruffling feathers to people that may not have the information or may want to bring different insight here. If you have a problem with the content of these forums. PM a mod and stop wasting space here ranting and raving about things that do not need to be brought up in public.

Lead by example.

Mitch.Conroy

P.S. The video that you provided as an example in you last couple of post was funny as hell.

It is unfortunate that you consider my post a "waste of space", as I have presented a very sound argument here. This is not even close to being a rant or a rave. A rant by definition is speaking or shouting at length in an erratic way. My posts are not erratic nor are they lengthy. They are concise and to the point. If you disagree, perhaps you could clarify what "Because all that you are doing is ruffling feathers to people that may not have the information or may want to bring different insight here" means. Maybe this will make things more clear.

"This entire topic is the representation of what you are trying to stop". This is incorrect and misses the point. My posts on this topic are not even close to being a representation of what I am trying to to stop. This however, "P.S. The video that you provided as an example in you last couple of post was funny as hell", is exactly what I think should be stopped. I am unsure how you could consider the link I posted "funny as hell" yet criticize what I have written. It is strange that you seem to be encouraging a pointless thread yet speaking out against mine. I am fairly confident that my post is useful to the magic community. That link on the other hand, is not. Read the posts made underneath it. That should clarify my point even further.

I am not trying to create a sort of controversy on these forums so I hope that following posts are not vicious in nature or attack the personal character of any member. This is obviously detrimental to the site. But, I am willing to prove my point further for anyone that needs clarification. As I said before, many people agree with me. This is direct proof that what I am arguing is not a "waste" as you have so bluntly stated. I still believe that this subject needs to be further explored. Whether or not members will do so will soon be seen.

Peace

Chris

 

[Steerpike]

If there is one thing that I have believed in throughout my life, it is that any person looking to engage in a new hobby or interest should know at least something about it before beginning.

Then what's the point of learning?

I don't care how many books on the history and theory of magic you read. You know as well as I do that your first performances are still going to suck. You can read about magic all you want, but all it will do is increase the chances that when you finally do start performing you'll be a pompous jackass.

Part of being a newbie is making mistakes and being vulnerable. It's about not knowing and a self-awareness so that when a more experienced veteran offers to teach, you're better prepared to listen.

You say you remember what it was like to be a newbie, but you don't. You remember what you did, but not what it was like. There's a difference.

All I am trying to say here is that the magicians/artists that created this site are far to good to have mind numbing posts and videos clogging up the forums.

What gives you the balls to think you can speak for them?

Here's a story Rick Maue related to me. He's seen Penn and Teller live about 50 times. At the end of a show, they always go out to the lobby to mingle with the audience. On one evening, an usher tried to herd people into a line telling them to get in single-file and not crowd Teller. Teller put his hand on the usher's shoulder and said, "Copperfield would make these people line up single-file. F*** that. These are my friends."

You... are the usher in this situation.

However, I am certain that someone like Chris Kenner for that matter would probably not want his name nor his work attached to a post entitled "Hey...look how funny I am in this video", "What is a double lift?", or "Who is Dai Vernon?".

Again, you have some serious testicular elephantitis.

Tell you what, PM Chris yourself and ask him to weigh in on this if this matter is so important to you.

Here is a perfect example of what I mean. http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=4476 . These questions/videos are too elementary and immature to be on a site like this.

When you get a web site, you can run it however you like. I personally find your arrogance disgusting.

Hopefully, magicians on this forum will know exactly what I mean. From what I have read above, it looks as if I have people on my side.

Popular sure don't mean right in my book.

 

[harapanong]

Cool down, Steerpike... you don't have to use words like "testicular elephantitis" and stuff. Come on, be less harsh on others.

You can't stop "useless posts" from cropping up on forums, but I guess the best you can do is to:

1. Don't contribute to it
2. Point it out on "useless threads" that this topic may be irrelevant
3. Post good stuff

- harapan. magic!

 

[Steerpike]

Cool down, Steerpike... you don't have to use words like "testicular elephantitis" and stuff. Come on, be less harsh on others.

I find it astoundingly arrogant for an elitist to think he can speak for other men through his keyboard, and I'm gonna say so.

I do not sugarcoat my words. If you guys are out performing like you should, what I say should be nothing compared to the rejections you're getting.

 

[chris311]

I find it astoundingly arrogant for an elitist to think he can speak for other men through his keyboard, and I'm gonna say so.

I do not sugarcoat my words. If you guys are out performing like you should, what I say should be nothing compared to the rejections you're getting.

Well, I mentioned in my above post that I hoped that attacks on a person's character would be avoided in this thread. Unfortunately, it looks as though it has occurred.

I do not believe that you know what the definition of elitist is. You seem to use that word very casually. I currently have 2 university degrees in Political Science. One is a B.A (Hon) with First Class Standing. The other is a Masters of the Arts degree. I have studied elitism in great detail. An elitist is "a person who believes that a society should be dominated by an elite". If you can explain to me (in proper English) how, by reading my post, I fit under this definition, it would be greatly appreciated.

You say that you do not sugarcoat your words. You must realize that not sugarcoating words is not synonymous with utter belligerence.

 

[jimbowmanjr]

While I might not use the same words Steerpike does I agree with him on almost every single point he has made thus far.

There is simply too much to counter in this thread right now with my own opinion on what would and would not refine these forums. The beauty of the internet as evidenced by this thread is that you can sit there and think you know what is best, how things should be run, and how much better you are than the next guy.

The purpose of these forums and this site was to bring people together in magic. It wasn't created as some elitist social club where the pros hang out sniffing brandy and puffing their cigars talking about how great they are.

Now you want to come along and put up some red tape and check resumes at the door? Everyone has to start somewhere...

The guys who created this site knew exactly what they were in for and the road ahead of them, most of them had already done it before. I find it humorous that you sit there and say "they are too good for this". If they were too good for this place then why be here in the first place? Why do they visit the forums on a regular basis and post helpful information? Why do they stop on the forums regularly, post a few joks and mingle with us underlings? Because they aren't better than any of us and neither are you.

The T11 crew may be more accomplished and skilled than most on these forums for sure. Long ago, well not so long ago, the men who were the master magicians would guide the youunger budding magicians along the path. Strangely enough that habit seems to be making a comeback, slowly but surely. Don't try and push it in the other direction please....

--Jim

 

[Steerpike]

I currently have 2 university degrees in Political Science. One is a B.A (Hon) with First Class Standing. The other is a Masters of the Arts degree.

Fine, here's your cookie.

An elitist is "a person who believes that a society should be dominated by an elite". If you can explain to me (in proper English) how, by reading my post, I fit under this definition, it would be greatly appreciated.

In my eyes, you don't remember what it was like to be a newbie. I don't know if you can remember.

And even if you say you don't, you seem to resent them on some level. You arrogantly believe you know what's best for this forum, and have the audacity to tell its creators you're speaking for them and their benefit.

I'll be the first to say this forum has problems. But those problems mostly revolve around political in-fighting and the spread of rumors like viral infections. Not with a couple of 14-year-olds asking who Dai Vernon was.

What this forum has going for it is that its own creators are willing to mingle with us rabble and impart what they've learned when asked for it.

But what you suggest is taking the route of Prospero in Masque of the Red Death. A kid who doesn't know how to do a double-lift will learn. Ignorance can be fixed with education, but there needs to be teachers. Are you going to be one? Or are you going to sit in your armchair and grin to yourself about how much better you are than everybody else?

You say that you do not sugarcoat your words. You must realize that not sugarcoating words is not synonymous with utter belligerence.

I call it tough love.

 

[chris311]

Fine, here's your cookie.



In my eyes, you don't remember what it was like to be a newbie. I don't know if you can remember.

And even if you say you don't, you seem to resent them on some level. You arrogantly believe you know what's best for this forum, and have the audacity to tell its creators you're speaking for them and their benefit.

I'll be the first to say this forum has problems. But those problems mostly revolve around political in-fighting and the spread of rumors like viral infections. Not with a couple of 14-year-olds asking who Dai Vernon was.

What this forum has going for it is that its own creators are willing to mingle with us rabble and impart what they've learned when asked for it.

But what you suggest is taking the route of Prospero in Masque of the Red Death. A kid who doesn't know how to do a double-lift will learn. Ignorance can be fixed with education, but there needs to be teachers. Are you going to be one? Or are you going to sit in your armchair and grin to yourself about how much better you are than everybody else?



I call it tough love.

Still, I am not sure how I am an elitist here. It is also a shame that you have totally downplayed the fact that I have achieved 2 degrees. I am not trying to directly attack your character here however at this point, I am certain that you are obviously not fit to engage in any intellectual debate or dialogue.

Let me reiterate my point one last time before this thread falls into the classic slippery slope fallacy.

I thoroughly enjoy this site and I am amazed that the artists responsible for creating it (JB, Kenner, Asher, the Bucks etc) have made themselves available to the public. It truly is a great thing. However, there are a lot of threads on this site that don't need to be here simply because they lack good content. I am not calling for an overhaul of the site. Ha Ha. This would be crazy. When I say 'refine' I simply mean to tidy up some mess.

Maybe what I am suggesting is that we should ALL think twice before making questionable posts that hurt Theory11's credibility. If this is done, I think the site would be more efficient and easier to navigate through. That's all.

Peace

Chris