Saturday Night Contest : What You Think

[Steerpike]

I'm genuinely trying to be less negative, but... I have to get this off my chest. This week's contest in which all you're asked to do is submit a picture of your disembodied hand holding a T11 deck is quite possibly the worst idea you guys have had yet. It's not even a contest in the way you normally think of one. It's more of a lottery. The only way it could be worse is if you were just using this as a pretense to get the participants to do your social media marketing for you for free. And I really don't want that to be the case because if I'm wrong, then I'm just a recovering cynic on the verge of a relapse. But if I'm right, that's even more cynical.

Am I the only one thinking that this is kind of cheap? Please, someone tell me if this is just me. It'll be incredibly depressing if I'm the only one, but at least I'll have some closure. If it really is just me, I'll give up. I promise. I've been begging for months for these things to be better than the usual guessing games and lotteries and raffles and... If this is really what you guys want and I'm the only one who wants to see more contest with real challenges and tests of skill, I'll shut up and shag off because I'm obviously not the target audience, nor will I ever be.

Of course, I'm also assuming that anyone still reads this thread. Not just the forum goers, but anyone actually employed by Theory 11. There are deserts that see more activity than this thread.

 

[Temitopesmith]

i am liking the cage match to death idea as it is quite familiar by the name and must be started out here .. it would a real test of the skills

 

[TylerRouss]

There is truly no reason to do any more lottery or chance based "contests." There are enough good contest ideas in this thread to go for a half dozen years or so. The only impediment I could see would be finding someone to judge the contest. How about whenever you guys don't feel like watching dozens of videos, you just do a community poll for the winner? I can think of no problem that doesn't have a simple solution in terms of SNC's. It disappoints me every time I see a lottery.

 

[Steerpike]

There is truly no reason to do any more lottery or chance based "contests." There are enough good contest ideas in this thread to go for a half dozen years or so. The only impediment I could see would be finding someone to judge the contest. How about whenever you guys don't feel like watching dozens of videos, you just do a community poll for the winner? I can think of no problem that doesn't have a simple solution in terms of SNC's. It disappoints me every time I see a lottery.

Given the complete lack of response so far, I think it's safe to say that no one who works for Theory 11 reads this thread anymore, if they ever did.

 

[NIKITAS K.]

Hello everyone new here and first time writing a post. Could you please let me know how do i partisipate concerning Saturday contests? I need to log in on Saturday evening or something? If someone knows please let me know. Thnaks a lot in advance

 

[Deechristopher]

Hi Nikitas,

Keep an eye on the general discussion forum, there's a thread posted each Saturday night (or early evening) in which you can find the rules of that week's contest. theory11 works on EST time, so check out the difference in T11 time and yours to make sure that you don't miss out!

 

[j.bayme]

Steerpike,

We do a HUGE array and variety of contests every week - and we've done so EVERY week - consistently - for six years running. This equates to about 300+ contests hosted. And this means some you will like, and some you won't care for. That's okay. Totally cool. That's expected, especially in a large community with a wide spectrum of interests and ages.

It's no coincidence that photo contests and "lottery" type contests get MASSIVE responses with hundreds of entries. If those aren't your thing, you are absolutely welcome not to participate. Please bear in mind that these are FREE contests with free prizes, shipped and sent to destinations around the world.

But, it would be inaccurate to say that we don't (OFTEN) do "real challenges and tests of skill." Just this past week, our contest was exactly that - with members around the world showcasing incredible displays of skill and technical ability. Noticeably absent from the list of participants was you - so if those are the type of contests you (or anyone reading this) enjoy the most: JUMP IN! Step up to the plate and get in it to win it.

We're absolutely intent and eager to provide a FUN and exciting array of contests each week, and we are forever open to suggestions and ideas as posted in this thread. And we're absolutely listening and quickly responsive to feedback.

 

[j.bayme]

You should have this "create a fancy double lift".

Like this idea a LOT!

 

[Andrei]

There's definitely a lot of great ideas in this thread! I know we've done quite a bit of skill based contests in the past and they're a lot of fun - especially for myself. Please don't think we do chance based contests because we're out of ideas! On the contrary, this thread is proof that thanks to our members, we have access to a boat load of amazing ideas.

That said though, skill based contests are precisely focused on a much smaller group that leaves out the majority - which is why we've done it pretty sparingly. Cardistry contests are demanding in that they require more than skill but also video equipment, which obviously not everyone has. Furthermore, the design contests (which I love) are more demanding still - that's a very small minority that can effectively participate. Regardless, I think we do our fair share of those and they're by far the most fun. We can't please everyone but that's definitely what we aim to do. Ultimately, our goal is to provide as little barriers of entry as possible so that everyone can have a chance to win while having a bit of fun. Definitely open to ideas - I will personally check this thread every morning as part of my daily ritual!

 

[TylerRouss]

I agree with the idea of little to no barriers to entry, but don't let that corrupt the idea of competition.

 

[Steerpike]

We do a HUGE array and variety of contests every week - and we've done so EVERY week - consistently - for six years running. This equates to about 300+ contests hosted. And this means some you will like, and some you won't care for. That's okay. Totally cool. That's expected, especially in a large community with a wide spectrum of interests and ages.

It's not personal taste I'm complaining about.

It's no coincidence that photo contests and "lottery" type contests get MASSIVE responses with hundreds of entries.

Yeah, because the barrier to entry in terms of skill and resources is almost nonexistent and requires a grand total of maybe a tenth of a second worth of thought. That's why lotto is so popular irl but only a handful of people ever make it on Jeopardy.

Noticeably absent from the list of participants was you - so if those are the type of contests you (or anyone reading this) enjoy the most: JUMP IN! Step up to the plate and get in it to win it.

So my lack of participation couldn't possibly be because I didn't care for the prize, have no interest in flashy sleight of hand anymore, or both?

I'm not sure we're on the same page, Jon.

Please don't think we do chance based contests because we're out of ideas! On the contrary, this thread is proof that thanks to our members, we have access to a boat load of amazing ideas.

Then the question becomes, "Why aren't you using them?" I think it's a fair question.

Cardistry contests are demanding in that they require more than skill but also video equipment, which obviously not everyone has.

I made that whole thread on digital video. I'm even willing to walk back on my previous condemnation of using smartphones for video as long as people understand how to keep it steady and properly frame a shot. Technology is not the barrier to entry that it used to be.

As for issues of skill limiting the number of entries... I'm not really seeing the problem here. Or at the very least, a contest that has a low barrier to entry but still requires some modicum of effort. Back in '09, I won some Ghost decks from Ellusionist by penning a review of the deck in short story format completely in-character. The barrier to entry on that one was literacy and an internet connection, which it's assumed everyone has if they're here.

 

[j.bayme]

Steerpike, if you believe that a quality photograph represents "a grand total of maybe a tenth of a second of thought," then I highly suggest you watch a photography documentary... or just follow Larry Fong on Twitter. That'd be a good start. Anyone can take a photo in a second, yes - but anyone can also pick up a guitar in a second. The object is only the tool - what you do with it, what you create with it, is what counts.

Regarding a wide spectrum of contest subjects - I think that our track record proves otherwise, with a constantly evolving array of topics from magic to cardistry, creation to performance, and super simple to (reasonably) hard. But of course, to each his own, and we're always on the lookout for feedback and suggestions on future contest topics. With a contest posted every week, it's natural that some will appeal to each individual more than others.

But to that effect, please, let's keep this thread - and all posts - positive and constructive, and together focus on building, not tearing down. And keep in mind that these contests are just that - free contests - not designed to promote world peace but instead to have FUN, and maybe learning a little bit, or improving a little bit, in the process.

 

[Andrei]

Then the question becomes, "Why aren't you using them?" I think it's a fair question.

Definitely a fair question, and the answer is simple. We do use them. We draw inspiration from this thread every Saturday. We're very grateful how much these ideas have helped thus far.

As for issues of skill limiting the number of entries... I'm not really seeing the problem here.

I think that's where we differ, we try to appeal to as many as possible and get everyone involved in our little tradition. The goal is not to prepare anyone for "Jeopardy". Like JB said, these are just free contests for the purpose of serving our loyal members and in the process, we may learn something together and sometimes we may not. Either way, we'll have fun and get free stuff in the process. That's always awesome.

We're not defending ourselves by any means though. We understand these are mostly suggestions and that there's always room for improvement (certainly taking all that into account). Rather, personally reaching out and addressing your concerns. Hopefully we get to see you participate more in the future, even if it's just a "lotto"!

 

[Steerpike]

Steerpike, if you believe that a quality photograph represents "a grand total of maybe a tenth of a second of thought," then I highly suggest you watch a photography documentary... or just follow Larry Fong on Twitter. That'd be a good start. Anyone can take a photo in a second, yes - but anyone can also pick up a guitar in a second. The object is only the tool - what you do with it, what you create with it, is what counts.

I've been very public about my experience, not just in magic and mentalism, but in digital video and music. I know how photography works, thank you. Please do not insult my intelligence. I'm just curious what skill you think it takes to come up with three different names of animals that may or may not be in a sealed envelope. Also, I looked through every submission in that photo contest. An out-of-focus picture of a hand at arm's length holding a deck of cards with someone' backyard in the background isn't exactly a groundbreaking work of fine art photography.

Regarding a wide spectrum of contest subjects - I think that our track record proves otherwise, with a constantly evolving array of topics from magic to cardistry, creation to performance, and super simple to (reasonably) hard.

In the longview? There's an argument for that, yes. In the last couple of months? They look phoned in more often than not. And I'm slightly put off by the fact that this criticism seems to be getting swept under the rug because it's not "positive" enough.

Definitely a fair question, and the answer is simple. We do use them. We draw inspiration from this thread every Saturday. We're very grateful how much these ideas have helped thus far.

I'm not seeing it.

We're not defending ourselves by any means though.

...

Hopefully we get to see you participate more in the future, even if it's just a "lotto"!

Unless you can present me a legitimate challenge as a showman and mentalist, I rather doubt it. I haven't so much as picked up a deck of cards since April this year. Let's not beat around the bush, for all the talk of wanting as wide an audience as possible, you guys aren't stupid. You know mentalists like me are not where your money is. You know that minimalists like myself are not the route to the fastest cash. I'm not saying that out of any resentment. It's a perfectly logical business decision that I in no way begrudge.

I'm not here to buy stuff. You guys have not released a single product that I had any interest in buying since Control. I'm here because I see a lot of young guys who need help and the number of us who have the experience to give the best advice are few in number. I don't want to be spoken to like I'm a customer, because I'm not. I'm not your target market, and in all likelihood I never will be. The last DVD I bought was Nathan Kranzo's Boondock Mental and that was before I decided to become a full-time mentalist. Since then, I've bought more book by Richard Webster than anyone else. And that's not your market.

I think this is part of the fundamental disconnect. You guys are still talking to me like a wayward customer you're trying to win over.

 

[j.bayme]

Steerpike, to each his own, but if posting in a positive, respectful, constructive manner is not of interest - or impossible for you to achieve, as it seems - I would encourage you to explore other communities, as it will not be tolerated here.

Your feedback was absorbed, responded to, and addressed - and we're grateful for constructive criticism (sincerely). But your previous post isn't that - it's unnecessary, vague, purposeless negativity - and it's not cool. Please leave it at that, and allow this thread to return back on topic to its actual purpose - which is a positive, upbeat discussion of new ideas that can make our contests - designed for the purpose of FUN - to be just that.

 

[Andrei]

I think this is part of the fundamental disconnect. You guys are still talking to me like a wayward customer you're trying to win over.

If talking in a polite sincere manner that addresses your concerns is not of any value, as it's made clear by your tone and responses, then you're certainly right. There is a disconnect and nobody is forcing you to participate in anything - including our forums. Hopefully you'll adjust your attitude though, you are good at pushing people to be better.

 

[Steerpike]

In my defense, I don't understand why you think those last couple paragraphs are so negative. I was explaining that I don't fault you for the target market you've chosen. I'm just not in that market, and that's one of the reasons I don't participate in the contests. The prizes don't generally fit my personal style, and whenever it is a contest of skill, it's usually cards, which I don't even use anymore. It's nothing personal. I don't enter them for the same reason a juggler wouldn't. And your repeated pressuring me to join them makes me feel like I'm being treated as a bashful child.

Yes, I know you think you're addressing my concerns, but it doesn't feel like that to me. I feel like I'm being sold to. "If you would join our contests, you'd have so much more fun." I wrote up that whole thread on improving videos and have critiqued multiple people's work and given advice, but you went and insulted me by saying I don't know anything about photography. And then made me out to be the bad guy for being offended by that.

But fine. You think my wanting to be spoken to as an adult, as a fellow performer and artist, is a bridge too far? Too negative? Fine. You win. I give up.

 

[j.bayme]

I've always liked the contests where you actually need to create something in order to win. I'd like to see:
Finish this Trick
Create a Variation
Combine Flourishes (like try to make something like Jackson 5 or smaller)

I like the idea of "finish this trick" a lot - or make a variation of THIS. I believe we've done things like "finish this flourish" in the past, but it's a cool concept that we could definitely do more of. Sweet!

 

[yyyyyyy]

While I have your attention, I may as well suggest another idea. I like the idea of trying to find a connection between magic and cardistry, I feel like it brings the two halves of the community together in a way. An idea for a SNC would be "Turn a sleight into a flourish, or turn a flourish into a sleight." For example, the Victoria control is a sleight within a flourish. Daniel Madison's Blackout shifts are literally repurposed flourishes. As for the converse, I like the idea of turning well known sleights into flourishes. The Pass is an awesome opener for a flourish, it'd be cool to see what people could do with it. Anyway, it's just a small thought.

 

[TylerRouss]

It's hard to attempt to not be biased here, as I feel very strongly one way. But just reading this conversation objectively, I stress that I am being as objective as I can, this is more than a little ridiculous.
Andrei you are doing an excellent job of trying to mediate, plenty of respect to you for that. I think you fairly clearly see both sides, and are trying to, if not compromise, at least ease some of the disparage. Great Job.
Steerpike, as always you are a little heavy handed, and sadly heavy handedness does not get results. As a man of practicality, I would expect you to see that and respond to it (perhaps you do, and this is just as calmed down as you can make it). But it is fact that being heavy handed with your opinions, regardless of whether or not you are correct, or whether who your talking to deserves heavy handedness, it does not get results. It just doesn't. People get to caught up in trying to resist you to even consider whether or not your points may have validity. Beyond that, you are being a smart-ass, you know you are being a smart-ass, and maybe you don't have a problem with that, but don't play innocent on that point. Your comments are meant to jibe right to the truth of your points, not explain or defend them.
Jonathan, I'm sorry to say it man but you are not dealing with this situation well. I truly believe this is simply due to poor debate choice on steerpikes part, and misinterpretation on your part, but regardless, this is your company, that means it is your responsibility to not only keep a clear head, but to try and think about things from the communities perspective. Which you we're doing wonderfully up to the point that you mentioned steerpikes unwelcomeness.

Let me tell you exactly how this looks at this point. It looks as if steerpike, along with numerous other members of the community, myself included, voiced criticism's that Jonathan did not think were correct. He defended his choices and his company. Then it starts to fall off. Steerpike then defended his position, but with heavy handed, smart-ass comments instead of explanations of opinion. Steerpike, I don't disagree with you, but your points are not entirely clear to someone who doesn't already know what they are. Jonathan, I believe you then misinterpreted what steerpike was getting at. Because your responses plainly did not address the issues that steerpike pointed out. You are absolutely correct in the things that you said, they are just all irrelevant to the issues steerpike, along with many others, are getting at. After that, it just sorta degrades until Jonathan implied that Steerpike and his opinions(how you choose to express yourself is part of your opinion) are not welcome in this community. Which was a serious misstep. Because plain and simple, it comes off looking like you got into a disagreement with a member of your community, got tired of arguing, and just said hey, im the big boy here, so you can just leave because I don't like how you talk. All four of us know that is not what happened, or what you said, but that is exactly what it looks like. And that image has some extremely negative connotations attached to it. I don't believe that either of you intended this conflict, but here it is.