Sealed and Stuck - A few questions.

[SleepingJag]

Here are a few facts that I have been able to gather from this post and looking online.

The bottle is factory sealed (You can let your audience inspect and break the seal)

True and False – Only on the gimmicked version can the bottle be sealed. On the impromptu version the bottle isn’t sealed. From your ad that you have posted you have lead people to believe that all versions are sealed. So we all now know that it is only on the gimmicked version that it is factory sealed.

The coin is BIGGER than the neck of the bottle:

True and False – Once again only on the gimmicked version is the coin bigger then the opening while on the impromptu version the coin must be smaller then the opening. And again you have lead people to believe that in all versions the coin can be larger then the opening.

Angles:

You have said that the angles are great and no one would notice the gimmick but the only review that I have seen has a different opinion and said that the angles aren’t that great. While I know that you said that you e-mailed them the better handling they still didn’t change their review so I would say that equals a False.

Combinable with a signed coin:

Hmmm just read a comment by Wayno over at the bird – the question was asked:

Could that coin be signed?

Wayno was nice enough to reply

No. But there is no need to. They see the coin go right in.

(Text in Bold by me)
So again another false statement made by Andy.

Let discuss crediting and research:

Over at Talk Magic mediafarm said that he looked just like Pop Top Drop by Adam Williamson in 1999 and that it was published as a feature effect in Magic Magazine V09 N6 February 2000. Have you done the research to ensure that your effect is original and that you haven’t created sometime similar to someone else’s. While his effect uses a soda bottle and yours uses a water bottle I would like to know if you contacted Adam Williamson and discussed this or did you purchase a back copy of Magic Magazine and check this. Note I am not saying that you stole anyone else’s idea just that you didn’t go the extra mile to ensure that your effect was 100% original.

So what I have learned so far is the following:
1)The bottle is factory sealed (You can let your audience inspect and break the seal) True and False
2) No labels:Not verified so I am giving this one a true
3) The coin is BIGGER than the neck of the bottle:True and False
4) Combinable with a signed coin: False
5) Slow and visual penetration: Was OK on the demo so I will give this one a True (would like to see a better Demo)
6) No cover during the penetration: I am giving this one a half true since the Clear Bottle is giving it some cover so the gimmick might be hidden by the bottle.
7) Coin penetrates at the MIDDLE of the bottle: True
8) Both coin and bottle are shown as separate objects before the penetration: True
9) Bottle can be examined right after the penetration. (No bottle switches): From the demo true
10) Easy to perform: From the reviews I am going to give this one a True since every effect is easy if you put in the practice time and effect and learn the effect and the ends and outs.

Things not mentioned:
Gimmick required you never mentioned that a gimmick was required but kept insisting that yours is a impromptu effect that is why you get a false.

Gimmick is easy to construct…. Well we have two different opinions one is that it is hard to set up (from a newbie) and another that it is easy to set up from a more experienced magician so I would give this one a medium on set up.

And as I discover more stuff about this effect I will post them.

But from just what I have learned from looking online I don’t think that this one will be in my cart anytime soon.

 

[MagicZen]

This to me is a clear home made version where on you tube the comments are filtered and controlled.

The REAL COMMENTS are deleted by young boy Andy himself. (probably becuase he doesn't want you to know the real truth....nah. not probably...definitely. He definitely doesn't want you to know the real truth.)

This whole home concocked version is in my honest opinion a very poor cib (which shouldn't even be classified as such).

I do NOT see a penetration anywhere.

All i see is a coin FALLING that's it, and worst of all, it falls in a very unnatural manner.
Coins just do not fall like that. Plus, and here is the real fact...not once does it ever look like it falls into the bottle.

So we have a poor excuse for a trick, (I say trick because it is no where near an effect). Not only does the coin look like it is falling behind the bottle, it NEVER, not once looks like it is penetrating the bottle...which is the whole WHAMMY and the point of a CIB. this is nowhere near a coin through bottle nor a coin in bottle.

This is a CBB - A coin BEHIND bottle.

A coin behind bottle that gets eclipsed by the horrific clutter of the hands where it gets passed off to the sorry souls who you would try to sell this to...what a disgrace and an insult to magic.

Do the magic..don't sell it.

Good magic sells itself.

This obviously cannot sell itself that is why the creator of this poor home version of a classic cannot let it stand on his own.

Highly unrecommended.

 

[AndyAce]

Doesn't it then seem unfair of you to criticize other DVDs for not teaching variations when you yourself are guilty of the same thing?

There is a difference. The impromptu version of Sealed & Stuck is taught in the DVD. You can applied what is taught IN the DVD to make Slam impromptu.

For Factory Sealed, you are asking people to use variation taught in OTHER DVDs.

That is the difference.

Are you talking about the same gimmick? You said before it would take less than a minute. How many gimmicks are we talking about here?

Slam and Sealed & Stuck uses different gimmicks. As for the number of gimmicks, it is up to you to define what is "gimmick". So it can range from 1 to 2.

Could not the same be said of other effects? If this is the case, I don't understand why you brought it up before in other threads.

I am honest and said IT IS NOT TAUGHT IN THE DVD. But those who purchased the DVD can email me about the routine.

Plus it was not needed. If you really want to performed the real factory sealed version, I suggest you go with the gimmick version.

They're not reviews, they're ads. That's the difference. Advertising is based on manipulation, not information. A review is information.

No, they ARE REVIEWS. Those reviews are made by people who PURCHASED the effect.

Just that they are not as comprehensive you like them to be. Basically they give their opinion of what they think of the effect.

Some people who recently purchased it said they will giva a more comprehensive review. That is why I asked you guys to wait for those reviews.

Then why was that a bad thing when other effects did it? I'm confused.

In my opinion, it is not a good thing when you penetrate the coin from the front. Your hand will cover more of the penetration.

In Sealed & Stuck, you can penetrate the coin through the middle of the bottle. That is why people think it is more visual. Plus there is no cover, they can clearly see the penetration.

For Factory Sealed (I assume this is the "other effects" you are talking about), you have to cover the coin and the point of penetration. Plus the penetration happens at the bottom of the bottle. IMHO, it is not as visual.

Of course it can still gets reactions. But for a perfectionist like me, I prefer a open penetration through the middle of the bottle.

Let discuss crediting and research:

Over at Talk Magic mediafarm said that he looked just like Pop Top Drop by Adam Williamson in 1999 and that it was published as a feature effect in Magic Magazine V09 N6 February 2000. Have you done the research to ensure that your effect is original and that you haven’t created sometime similar to someone else’s. While his effect uses a soda bottle and yours uses a water bottle I would like to know if you contacted Adam Williamson and discussed this or did you purchase a back copy of Magic Magazine and check this. Note I am not saying that you stole anyone else’s idea just that you didn’t go the extra mile to ensure that your effect was 100% original.

As you can see in the Talk Magic Forum, the whole issue is resolved.

If you want to talk about research, we can start a whole new topic on that.

Nick Verna did not purchased my effect before he released FS. If he really did his research, he should have purchased my effect. His effect used the principle taught in Aquatic too. But I don't think that was mentioned in the DVD

Chris the creator of Impervious did not purchase my effect either. Later on, it appears that one of Impervious effect uses a similar method taught in the impromptu version of Sealed & Stuck.

As you can see, it is not that easy to do a 100% research. Other CTBs did not do enough research too.

But I don't really blame them, as there are really too much things to research on.

Moreover, people who purchased it already comfirmed that the method is original.

Things not mentioned:
Gimmick required you never mentioned that a gimmick was required but kept insisting that yours is a impromptu effect that is why you get a false.

Gimmick is easy to construct…. Well we have two different opinions one is that it is hard to set up (from a newbie) and another that it is easy to set up from a more experienced magician so I would give this one a medium on set up.

I already said ALOT of times. You do need a gimmick for the effect. Hence under the facts of Sealed & Stuck, you don't see the word impromptu.

However, there are 2 impromptu versions, but the bottle cannot be factory sealed. It was not taught in the DVD. I already mentioned that a couple od times in this thread. Please read.

The bottle is factory sealed (You can let your audience inspect and break the seal)

True and False – Only on the gimmicked version can the bottle be sealed. On the impromptu version the bottle isn’t sealed. From your ad that you have posted you have lead people to believe that all versions are sealed. So we all now know that it is only on the gimmicked version that it is factory sealed.

No, not all versions are factory sealed.

If you read my post here and on youtube and other forums, I make it a point to tell people that the impromptu version is NOT factory sealed.

The coin is BIGGER than the neck of the bottle:

True and False – Once again only on the gimmicked version is the coin bigger then the opening while on the impromptu version the coin must be smaller then the opening. And again you have lead people to believe that in all versions the coin can be larger then the opening.

Same as above.

Angles:

You have said that the angles are great and no one would notice the gimmick but the only review that I have seen has a different opinion and said that the angles aren’t that great. While I know that you said that you e-mailed them the better handling they still didn’t change their review so I would say that equals a False.

The angles will remind you of the angles of Factory Sealed. Maybe slightly better. As you can have people standing beside you. (check out the demo video)

I will cover the angles fully in the DVD. You don't need to worry much about the angles.

Could that coin be signed?

Can you show me the thread? I think he is talking about other effects.

It CAN be signed. It was taught in the DVD.

SleepingJag, as you can see, I'm not hiding when you asked me the question. I have nothing to hide.

There are NO FALSE statements. I'm clean and open with the answers. I really hope other CTB creators can do the same.

Some of your questions even touch on the methods (Question regarding the gimmicks), but I still tried my best to answer you.

 

[TheInfomer]

.

But from just what I have learned from looking online I don’t think that this one will be in my cart anytime soon.

I agree sleeping Jag.

I did though want to thank Andy for getting me interested in the bona fide "Factory Sealed". If it wasn't for you Andy and your obvious love for the legendary classic, I wouldn't have gotten the information I was looking for.

You've refreshed the Factory Sealed thread a million or so times and I was but inclined to read and read and read even more. Eventually falling in love with the effect as a whole myself. Not just its convincing visual penetration and various ways to perfrom it (openly too..with no cover), but the workability of the effect which I find quite supreme.

Thank you once again Andy, for helping me in my personal quest for the best Coin/Bottle effect that suits me.


Oh and contrary to what you said earlier about FS needing clean up...
There are ways taught on FS where there is no clean up..it just ends sqeaky clean and is simply brilliant.

But, how would you know..right?

 

[AndyAce]

This to me is a clear home made version where on you tube the comments are filtered and controlled.

The REAL COMMENTS are deleted by young boy Andy himself. (probably becuase he doesn't want you to know the real truth....nah. not probably...definitely. He definitely doesn't want you to know the real truth.)

I deleted the comments because those comments are obviously sent by a group of trouble makers. Moreover there are evidence that they might even be the same person. It happens in other magic forums too, where people use multiuple usernames to bash my effect.

Look at the comments in youtube.

WOW ACE, nice job on the Coin through Bottle. I was just on a forum where you mentioned this effect and was trying to find a demo. I just ordered F.S. late last night, but yours looks MUCH more visual.

It is funny to find that some people love it. And some people just hate it like this CTB destroyed their family and lives.

The comments are VERY extreme. And those bashing comments came from the SAME group of people all the time. I think it is a weird conincidence that that group of people happened to support a particular CTB. They also bash up all other CTBs effect too.

Hence I strongly believe that they are just out there to promote a particular CTB, and bash all other CTBs.

I have blocked all of them (or it could be that same person all along) so that the comments page won't turn into a mess. (like what you are seeing now)

This whole home concocked version is in my honest opinion a very poor cib (which shouldn't even be classified as such).

If you penetrate a coin through the middle of the bottle, it will 100% fall and sink on it's way to the bottom of the bottle.

The fact that they can see the coin penetrates, THEN fall inside the bottle is what make this effect so strong. More things are happening in this effect. It's not just "the coin penetrates the bottom of the bottle" then that's it.

For Sealed & Stuck, the audience can first see the coin penetrates, THEN the falling of the coin inside the bottle. It is a bonus for the audience.

If you just drop a coin and let it fall outside the bottle, you won't achieve the same effect. Go try it yourself, go drop a coin outside the bottle, you will see what I mean.

Here are some comments from gdw in the magic cafe. He even suggest a way to show that the penetration looks convincing.

Geeze, I HAVE dropped money in water, and they FLOAT down just like that. You try it.

Also, try dropping a coin just along the back of abottle and see if it looks like that.

First off, yes, a coin WOULD flip, if it is DROPPED into the water. The illusion here is that it is IN the water, and then dropped down. It does not drop from above the water. You would have to hold the coin under water, and then release it. If I MUST, I will film what it looks like and then post it. Also, even if it DOES flip, in such a short distance when released while completely vertically in a confined area, it will still fall in a similar slow manner.

Complaining on such a semantic level about the way it "falls through the water" is like complaining about how every levitation does not move like if it were really floating in air. No sh ite.

But the illusion is ***ed convincing.

In other words, If you can do real magic, if you can really penetrate a coin through the middle of the bottle, that is EXACTLY what it would look like.

How it that NOT convincing?

Of course, in Sealed & Stuck, you CAN make the coin FLIP AND FALL FAST inside the bottle when you penetrate the coin through the middle.

It is a little more difficult to do the slow version, but to me it looks more magical. In order to make it fall slow, you need to know the technique, which I taught in the DVD.

I can understand why you think it don't look magical.

Because you have not penetrate a coin through the middle of the bottle and try to make it fall slow. You don't know what that looks like.

If you know real magic, try doing that and you shall see it will look the same as Sealed & Stuck.

If you don't know real magic, do the experiment gdw suggested. You shall see and you shall believe.

If you think that is too much trouble and work for you. then forget it. But stop saying it don't look convincing without doing the experiment and see for yourself.

Like what gdw said, the penetration is ***ed convincing.

Like what other magicians said, it looks magical. To my audience, that is the most magical thing they have ever seen.

Fantastic! By far one of the most visual coin through bottles I've ever come across, and trust me, I've come across a LOT!"

A coin visually penetrates the middle of the bottle slowly (or fast and flipping if you desire) and you can see it sinking down the bottle.

They can grab the bottle immediately and examine it.

They will discovered the bottle is brand new factory sealed. They tried to get the coin out but the coin is bigger than the opening.

You will enjoy the look on their faces. The screaming might be a bit annoying, but you will get used to it.

MagicZen, it is obvious that you really support a particular CTB. And other CTBs are just trash to you.

I get your point. I'm sure other people who read your posts got your point too. So please post in this thread only if you have something new to say about my effect.

Thank you.

 

[AndyAce]

Oh and contrary to what you said earlier about FS needing clean up...
There are ways taught on FS where there is no clean up..it just ends sqeaky clean and is simply brilliant.

Yes, one of them involves a gimmick that most magicians would be familar with.

The other method let's you end clean, but you cannot show the coin and bottle as seperate objects right before the penetration.

Thank you once again Andy, for helping me in my personal quest for the best Coin/Bottle effect that suits me.

You are welcome.

TheInfomer, You have already informed people that you love FS. All of us know that.

Like what I said in other forums, all CTBs have their pros and cons. There is no such thing as the perfect CTB. You have to look at the various CTBs, then decide which one suits you best.

If you think FS suits you best, go ahead and use it.

For me, I would find something that would give the audience the GREATEST IMPACT.

Yes, I need to put in more effort, i might need to use a gimmick. But that is not important. Magic is NOT about me, it's about the audience. It is about what THEY experience and feel.

The fact that they can open the factory sealed bottle really sells the effect. Believe me, just watch the demo video. It is LESS convincing if you have to open the bottle yourself. Let them open it, let them play with it. Let them discover that the coin is also bigger than the neck of the bottle. Enjoy their reactions.

After the penetration, you can just relax and enjoy the show. The reactions will go on for a LONG TIME.

 

[MagicZen]

Andy Nick Verna doesn't have to purchase any DVD or notes that were released AFTER he released the transfer of all rights to his effect.

He released his effect to E before you or anyone.

He is the originator of a slow melting penetration through an unopened water bottle which HE coined Factory Sealed.

You aquatic statement doesn't make much sense since number one: the ROUTINE is done with an already opened bottle, was releleases after Nick Released his to privlidged sectors, and if you weren't BANNED from other magic forums you would have seen Nick V himself make this post about those principles...

teaches breaking down the components for specific methods, that are existing in Factory Sealed's methodology where they are not found ANYWHERE else but Factory Sealed.

Not only is he uses HIS methods, but there are specific components to it not found anywhere else...Get your facts straight!

Plus his WHOLE EFFECT is unique and original.
Unlike yours which looks like a vertical version of passing thru..sorry but it does.


Plus there was a GREAT comparison of all these ALL of a SUDDEN CIBS that kept popping up...

Some are OK...some are really bad, but ALL were released after Nick let his go.


It is my opinion you don't even deserve to be categorized with any of these gentleman on the list..for one they are gentelmen, and two they conduct themselves as such.

Comparison to others:

First and foremost... ALL of the following were released AFTER Factory Sealed was released to E.
And, after E announced the coming of their CTB project publicly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sealed in

"Main effect" is a 'to location' type of trick.
Not a visual penetration effect...(plain and simple.)

Other variations show a 'quick' penetration that doesn't look truly convincing all the time because of either the pathway of the coin being inconsistent in the way it appears in the bottle or the aftermath being the main concentration and not the penetration presentation itself. Plus WAAAY to much movement of the bottle. Very suspicious looking. Looks like you're trying to shake something that is already inside into view. Not very genuine.

Although now in the ad copy and written in places like the jacket, nowhere on the DVD did I "hear" the signature term "Factory Sealed" be mentioned by either of the two gents in the video. (a term used to describe Nick Verna's effect FACTORY SEALED). A term placed in print long ago mind you.

Sealed In uses what many agree to be an impractical sealing method that does not work well a lot of the time and is not good for all bottles. Not practical enough for the street scene you see advertised in their demo. The pre show 'gimmicking' work is quite time consuming even after you've mastered it. There is no quick reset, no ability to repeat the effect. Plus the seal when opened, only made ONE small crack sound. Didn't seem real at all. Not very convincing. Low performance value.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Impervious

No coin contacting the bottle to demonstrate a truly convincing penetration.
More of a 'mind thing' here.

Jeremy's Hanrahan's contribution though, is excellent for routines and worth checking out. "The Hanrahan Hold," I believe can be obtained through Jeremy directly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sealed & Stuck

Not a convincing penetration at all in my book.

A coin falling behind the bottle (where the performer places it) simply is not the same as a coin penetrating the bottle.

There is no reason to even discuss this further for the penetration part is the whole point of the effect. I simply could not get passed the core of this trick for it does not look like it penetrates the bottle at all.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aquatic (A CIB routine)

Once again we have a coin never actually contacting the bottle for the initial penetration of the routine where the penetration is to take place. More of an implication type of thing. Not completely convincing.

Not impromptu. Requires a gimmick. Not even sealed.

The whole coin under bottle (as well as the 'under the sea' version in abyss2) reminds me of what was already in print from a book called Bet You Can't, Scientific Impossibilities to Fool You which was ©copyrighted back in the 1980s.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Abyss2

Seems like Abyss woke up to the full bottle/sealed bottle bar previously set.
The CIB premise of Abyss1 revamped.
Alternate ways to perform.
Not as clean all the time like you see in the demo, misdirection is required.
Can't just up and borrow the bottle.
Not completely impromptu, but can appear to be.
A traditional gimmick is required for the sealing the bottle. Sealing the bottle is limited.
Gimmick is not applicable to all bottles.
There is a set up time around 20 secs or so.
Some like it, some hate it. (especially with a certain something used)
Not available on DVD, but price is reasonable.

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Lucid Dreams

Gimmicked City.
Prep work out the Wazoo.

Dream One consists of too much movement of the bottle, and looks fishy as to the way the coin enters.
(pathway of the coin)

Dream Two has a visual FALL and the cover is way too long to be considered a convincing penetration.
Many may find the handling to be uncomfortable and cumbersome as well.

This is a clear example of a CIB brought to market that was "just invented" if I may quote the creator himself.

This is my honest take on other effects that will inevitably be compared to Factory Sealed and Bullet. Some were clearly rushed in anticipation of beating Factory Sealed and Bullet out of the gate, others...well just didn't really feel that magical when performed for live audiences.

--Jim

And yes you can end clean and show as two seperate objects in FS...maybe YOU can't.
But, most magicians can.

You need to practice, son.

 

[SleepingJag]

MagicZen please edit your post as everyone in the online magic community has already see what you quoted.

Andy could we please stay on topic... I didn't mention Factory Sealed or Nick in any of my post.

 

[Steerpike]

There is a difference. The impromptu version of Sealed & Stuck is taught in the DVD. You can applied what is taught IN the DVD to make Slam impromptu.

For Factory Sealed, you are asking people to use variation taught in OTHER DVDs.

That is the difference.

That doesn't answer my question. You criticized a DVD (that I'm skeptical as to whether or not you own), and indirectly questioned the integrity of those who refuted your claims.

However, your own advertisements neglect very specific information. You're very glib, but it's disengenuous to criticize those who play the same game as you.

Slam and Sealed & Stuck uses different gimmicks. As for the number of gimmicks, it is up to you to define what is "gimmick". So it can range from 1 to 2.

That's one question down.

I am honest and said IT IS NOT TAUGHT IN THE DVD. But those who purchased the DVD can email me about the routine.

You only conceded this after you were directly asked about it. Your self-promotion on the Ellusionist and Theory-11 boards never mentioned this. Omission of information is not a lie (even though you claimed it was earlier), but at the same time you can't pretend that you were being entirely truthful with people at any given time, because that's the nature of advertising.

Plus it was not needed. If you really want to performed the real factory sealed version, I suggest you go with the gimmick version.

Irrelevant to my point.

No, they ARE REVIEWS. Those reviews are made by people who PURCHASED the effect.

Just that they are not as comprehensive you like them to be. Basically they give their opinion of what they think of the effect.

Again, pointing to something and smiling while nodding your head is not a successful pitch.

You said you don't care if you're successful in magic. Given your attitude toward the nature of advertising thus far, I'll believe that.

In my opinion, it is not a good thing when you penetrate the coin from the front. Your hand will cover more of the penetration.

You said it was your opinion just now. So why earlier were you trying to pass it off as fact?

Of course it can still gets reactions. But for a perfectionist like me, I prefer a open penetration through the middle of the bottle.

Remember that a lot of what we do is based on psychological manipulation. In an ACR, does the spectator ever truly see their card go into the middle of the deck? Not unless you use a Pass, but no sane magician would ever make an ACR based on nothing but the Pass.

The spectator never sees the card actually go into the middle of the deck and physically rise to the top. But with a good performance, they will disremember that which is inconvenient to the experience.

If he really did his research, he should have purchased my effect. His effect used the principle taught in Aquatic too. But I don't think that was mentioned in the DVD

Factor Sealed went into production almost a year before Aquatic was released in the 1337 notes. And when did your effect come out?

Don't be glib. Cyril himself has come under heat from his peers because he developed effects and principles very similar to other magicians' around the same time they did. It happens.

 

[MagicZen]

And yes you can let the spec break open the bottle, as an example was shown in the Factory Sealed DVD where the spec even vouches he broke the seal. ...Acclaimed Justin Miller goes over this in the Factory Sealed DVD 20:10 in the running time...plus it was proven in performance..all this with minimum set up...it's awesome ....AWESOME!!!!


But, before you even do what Nick Verna did with his whole Factory Sealed concept, you need a convincing penetration which your home version lacks.

You need to have the penetration son, the penetration!

 

[AndyAce]

you weren't BANNED from other magic forums you would have seen Nick V himself make this post about those principles...

If you want to talk about the ban, or the unfair treatment I recieved in the E forums, we can talk about that in another thread.

The ban me for no reason. That was the reason they gave. They won't ban people who make personal attacks, they ban the guy that was attacked. The E's forum is well known for this.

Like what I said, if you want to talk more about it, start a new thread. But don't try to shift the focus of this thread.

Andy Nick Verna doesn't have to purchase any DVD or notes that were released AFTER he released the transfer of all rights to his effect.

He released his effect to E before you or anyone.

Like what I said, if you want to talk about all this issues, we can do it in another thread.

In the long history of magic, there are many cases of magicians creating the same principle or effect independently. Nick might have transfer the rights first, but that also means that NO ONE knows the secret to Nick's effect. Hence I beleive Sean came up with the SAME principle independently. Although Nick transfer the rights first, that does not make his creation invalid.

Just look at Stigmata, which was created independently by Wayne Houchin and Banachek.

Ok... we are going off topic now.

And yes you can end clean and show as two seperate objects in FS...maybe YOU can't.
But, most magicians can.

Like what I said one of the methods need a gimmick and the other one don't look convincing as you cannot show the coin and bottle as seperate objects.

The method of ending clean has been used long before FS was created.

Looks like you like to compare what FS and Sealed & Stuck can or cannot do. Here are some comparisions.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sealed & Stuck uses factory sealed bottles where the audience can break the seal.

Factory Sealed doesn't use factory sealed bottles. The audience cannot break the seal.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sealed & Stuck penetration: The coin is penetrates through the middle top of the bottle. They can see the coin sinking down. The hand is shown empty right after the coin penetrates the bottle. The coin is not covered.

Factory Sealed penetration: The coin is fully covered by the hand. The coin penetrates through the bottom. The bottom is fully covered by the hand when the penetration happens. You cannot see how the coin penetrates. Hand can be shown empty.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sealed & Stuck can use big signed coins.
Factory Sealed cannot be done with big signed coins.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Factory sealed and bullet together cost $44.90. Sealed and Stuck only costs 22.95
Sealed and Stuck DVD teaches a coin in bottle like Bullet (Slam).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[MagicZen]

Sleeping Jag I was responding to Andy's post not yours.

and aNDY...re read my post about the principles..involving components NOT found anywhere else.
That was a direct quote from the magic cafe.

And reference was attached as to exactly where those components are on the DVD.

Check the cafe for yourself..or the FS DVD.

Do some research.
You can learn alot.

 

[TheInfomer]

Sealed and Stuck only costs 22.95

You get what you pay for.
Sorry Andy, but I'll have to pass even at 10 bucks.
Plus, the effect doesn't strike me as "convincing", let alone magical.

But from just what I have learned from looking online I don’t think that this one will be in my cart anytime soon.

Ditto.

 

[AndyAce]

However, your own advertisements neglect very specific information. You're very glib, but it's disengenuous to criticize those who play the same game as you.

You only conceded this after you were directly asked about it. Your self-promotion on the Ellusionist and Theory-11 boards never mentioned this. Omission of information is not a lie (even though you claimed it was earlier), but at the same time you can't pretend that you were being entirely truthful with people at any given time, because that's the nature of advertising.

I criticize them not entirely because of the misleading advertisements. All advertisements have some misleading informations.

HOWEVER, if someone wants to ask questions about what the effect can or cannot accomplish, you HAVE to be honest and answer it.

The main reason why I criticized the Ellusionist is because when people ask questions like "Can you use a big signed coin in the impomptu versios?", they NEVER give you the answer.

I'm different, as you can see I answered that VERY SAME question. When sleepingjag asked me that, I gave a straight answer. NO, it CANNOT BE DONE.

And yes you can let the spec break open the bottle, as an example was shown in the Factory Sealed DVD where the spec even vouches he broke the seal. ...Acclaimed Justin Miller goes over this in the Factory Sealed DVD 20:10 in the running time...plus it was proven in performance..all this with minimum set up...it's awesome ....AWESOME!!!!

No, you cannot let them inspect and break the seal. Read my words again. INSPECT AND BREAK THE SEAL. That cannot be done.

But, before you even do what Nick Verna did with his whole Factory Sealed concept, you need a convincing penetration which your home version lacks.

You get what you pay for.
Sorry Andy, but I'll have to pass even at 10 bucks.
Plus, the effect doesn't strike me as "convincing", let alone magical.

The penetration looks like the "real thing". Have you tried the experiment I told you? You will find out that if you can do real magic, that is how it would look like.

Here's what other people think of the penetration.

I just ordered F.S. late last night, but yours looks MUCH more visual.

 

[TheInfomer]

Yes the spec can break the seal in FS...it was caught on tape..even to there point where the kid calls his friend and says he broke it...how is it done?...MAGIC!!
The best part is it was done with no gimmicks..Justin performed it so well and accomplished it with NO GIMMICKS..and it was successful..and PROVEN..and caught on TAPE......Yours can't do all that with no gimmicks...You gotta LEARN it!

Yours just doesn't have that kind of capability to do with no gimmicks.
no worries, it's no biggie.

Andy if you like your home version of a VISUAL FALLL, (not a visual penetration)..then go have fun with it. I mean it's probably the most visual fall of the year...It surely FALLS.
No need to try to sell it to people though here who don't like it.
Go have fun with your visual FALL. (behind the bottle)

Leave the penetrations to the PROS.



Pssst..FYI It's Saturday...go enjoy it!
Be HAPPY!

 

[AndyAce]

__________________________________________________

Sealed & Stuck uses factory sealed bottles where the audience can break the seal.

Factory Sealed doesn't use factory sealed bottles. The audience cannot break the seal.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

Sealed & Stuck penetration: The coin is penetrates through the middle top of the bottle. They can see the coin sinking down. The hand is shown empty right after the coin penetrates the bottle. The coin is not covered.

Factory Sealed penetration: The coin is fully covered by the hand. The coin penetrates through the bottom. The bottom is fully covered by the hand when the penetration happens. You cannot see how the coin penetrates. Hand can be shown empty.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

Sealed & Stuck can use big signed coins.
Factory Sealed cannot be done with big signed coins.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

Factory sealed and bullet together cost $44.90. Sealed and Stuck only costs 22.95
Sealed and Stuck DVD teaches a coin in bottle like Bullet (Slam).
__________________________________________________

It is already confirmed that in terms of conditions of penetration, Sealed & Stuck is better than Factory Sealed. The real factory sealed bottle and the big signed coins really makes the effect more impossible.

And the prices are solid facts.

Andy if you like your home version of a VISUAL FALLL, (not a visual penetration)..then go have fun with it.

No need to try to sell it to people here who don't like it.

Go have fun with your visual FALL. (behind the bottle)

Pssst..FYI It's Saturday...go enjoy it!

Also, try dropping a coin just along the back of abottle and see if it looks like that.

First off, yes, a coin WOULD flip, if it is DROPPED into the water. The illusion here is that it is IN the water, and then dropped down. It does not drop from above the water. You would have to hold the coin under water, and then release it. If I MUST, I will film what it looks like and then post it. Also, even if it DOES flip, in such a short distance when released while completely vertically in a confined area, it will still fall in a similar slow manner.

Complaining on such a semantic level about the way it "falls through the water" is like complaining about how every levitation does not move like if it were really floating in air. No sh ite.

But the illusion is ***ed convincing.

In other words, If you can do real magic, if you can really penetrate a coin through the middle of the bottle, that is EXACTLY what it would look like.

How it that NOT convincing?

Of course, in Sealed & Stuck, you CAN make the coin FLIP AND FALL FAST inside the bottle when you penetrate the coin through the middle.

It is a little more difficult to do the slow version, but to me it looks more magical. In order to make it fall slow, you need to know the technique, which I taught in the DVD.

I can understand why you think it don't look magical.

Because you have not penetrate a coin through the middle of the bottle and try to make it fall slow. You don't know what that looks like.

If you know real magic, try doing that and you shall see it will look the same as Sealed & Stuck.

If you don't know real magic, do the experiment gdw suggested. You shall see and you shall believe.

If you think that is too much trouble and work for you. then forget it. But stop saying it don't look convincing without doing the experiment and see for yourself.

Like what gdw said, the penetration is ***ed convincing.

Like what other magicians said, it looks magical. To my audience, that is the most magical thing they have ever seen.

The only thing that have more room for discussion is the penetration. Hence I can see you guys are focusing on the penetration now.

Let's put it this way, the "visual penetation" can be a little subjective.

Some people prefered that the coin and point of penetration to be covered.

Some prefered the coin penetrating through the middle without covering the point of penetration.


It's like you might think the girl next door is a great beauty. Other people might disagree.

If we keep on arguing which one looks more visual, the discussion can go on forever.

Some people love the penetration of Sealed & Stuck. Some of you guys here don't like it. Same goes for Nick's effect, some love it, some don't.

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

 

[Steerpike]

The main reason why I criticized the Ellusionist is because when people ask questions like "Can you use a big signed coin in the impomptu versios?", they NEVER give you the answer.

In the forums, these questions came up a lot and we answered truthfully.

I'm different,

Saying you're different and being different are two VERY different things.

No, you cannot let them inspect and break the seal. Read my words again. INSPECT AND BREAK THE SEAL. That cannot be done.

Considering neither one of us owns the effect, that's a little difficult to say, isn't it?

Justin says he can do it. When I actually order the effect, I don't know if it's just me, but I'd probably email Justin and Nick myself with my thoughts, observations, and ideas, and ask for some constructive feedback.

You say people can email you for more information and advice... but you say it as if you can't talk to any other creator of an effect.

 

[TheInfomer]

It is on the DVD wher the kid grabs the bottle and twists the cap...

Then, you hear him say "but I broke the seal"

It was a combination of things...all the result of good magic.

PROVEN and caught on tape.

Can it be done ..YES

Can you do it? Not if you don't know the groundwork and practice...and perfrom it well like Justin did.

Justin Miller PROVED this is possible with Factory Sealed...all with a no gimmick on the spot set up..surpassing anything out there...by LIGHT YEARS!

 

[AndyAce]

In the forums, these questions came up a lot and we answered truthfully.

Really? I remembered asking the exact SAME question together with 2 other members. Do you know what happended? Some E members just came together and bash the hell out of me for asking the question. The creator instead of answering the question, JOINED in the bashing party. There are no answers, the thread is closed.

Please do something about the moderating over there. I really hope what you said is the truth.

Saying you're different and being different are two VERY different things.

I already explained why I'm different.

Considering neither one of us owns the effect, that's a little difficult to say, isn't it?

Justin says he can do it. When I actually order the effect, I don't know if it's just me, but I'd probably email Justin and Nick myself with my thoughts, observations, and ideas, and ask for some constructive feedback.

I own it. It CANNOT be done. They cannot inspect and break the seal.

Here's one of the comments on FS found in the magic cafe from someone who owns the product.

Even though it could happen that a spectator is un-observant like the guy in the trailer that thinks the bottle was sealed, the same can't be expected for most people. So you can't count on people thinking it was actually sealed. It isn't that big of a deal though. Just open it yourself and let them think it was sealed. If the name wasn't called Factory Sealed this wouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[AndyAce]

It is on the DVD wher the kid grabs the bottle and twists the cap...

Then, you hear him say "but I broke the seal"

It was a combination of things...all the result of good magic.

PROVEN and caught on tape.

Can it be done ..YES

Can you do it? Not if you don't know the groundwork and practice...and perfrom it well like Justin did.

Justin Miller PROVED this is possible with Factory Sealed...all with a no gimmick on the spot set up..surpassing anything out there...by LIGHT YEARS!

I have to say again, they CANNOT INSPECT and BREAK the seal in Nick's effect.

Look at the demo video of Sealed & Stuck. That is what I mean by inspecting the seal and breaking the seal.

In Sealed & Stuck, you can hear the girl "AA?!!" when she found out the bottle is still factory sealed. That is the inspecting part.

Next, you can see her twisting the bottle a couple of times, and you can CLEARLY see the seal slowly breaking.

In Nick's FS, you CANNOT do the same thing. The factory sealed part in factory sealed is not as convincing as you have to break open the bottle yourself.

Even though it could happen that a spectator is un-observant like the guy in the trailer that thinks the bottle was sealed, the same can't be expected for most people. So you can't count on people thinking it was actually sealed. It isn't that big of a deal though. Just open it yourself and let them think it was sealed. If the name wasn't called Factory Sealed this wouldn't be much of a problem.