The Worst Exposers of All Time?

[Rabid]

Brad,

I started at E.
I frequent their forums regularly.
I have learnt much from them and their products, and through their forums and the people that frequent them, I have been led to many different places, books and teachings.

My love for magic is now more powerful than it was when i went looking for the secret to David Blaine levitating. I found E....ummmed and ahhhed over whether to purchase the How To Do Street Magic video, finally did and the rest is history.

I've made mistakes starting out, been shown the error of my ways, how to fix those errors, and have had too many discussions on ethics and theory to recount...and all from the place you seen to hate so much.

So my questions to you is this:

Could it not be that there are bad eggs in every batch? That E is not to blame for idiots who probably can't even spell their own names, let alone understand ethics in any form or art or discipline?

For if E is so low and such a bad teacher of magic, then surely I must be as bad a student as these other E-Boys you have met?



Personally, I'd love to know (in simple terms, without all the bollocks) why you dislike Ellusionist so much. A PM would be fine as there's no need to railroad this thread any longer. Almost without exception, the posts I've read of yours on this and other sites always amount to the same thing. True, you could level the same accusation at me, but I have stated why and am more than happy to elaborate on my beliefs...what about you?


Respectfully


Rabid

 

[Steerpike]

I'm going to have to side with Rabid on this one Brad. As this conversation has gone on, I come more and more to the conclusion that you're painting an entire community with the same brush. And that includes me and Rabid.

I'm losing patience with you continually insulting my intelligence and my integrity while simultaneously implying I have no experience in the larger magic community simply because of where I shop.

I've said it before. I know I'm crass and narcissistic. I know I'm not even that likeable. But don't you dare associate me with those children on YouTube trading secrets. I've taken newbies under my wing and helped guide them as much as I can with what experience I have. And if I couldn't help them personally, I pointed them toward people who could. I've never exposed an effect to my audiences, and I've never traded a secret.

But according to your logic, I'm lying through my teeth about all that. All because of where I shop.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Brad,



So my questions to you is this:

Could it not be that there are bad eggs in every batch? That E is not to blame for idiots who probably can't even spell their own names, let alone understand ethics in any form or art or discipline?

For if E is so low and such a bad teacher of magic, then surely I must be as bad a student as these other E-Boys you have met?

There are always exceptions. And we need to ask ourselves, is the chance of finding a positive exception worth the risk that we may not.

I helped with the Ammar Easy to Master series. While I was working with Michael, I was convinced that what we were doing was good for magic. We were exposing interested people to some of the best material in print (with permission AND credit) and we were opening doors of inquiry which they could step through.

In retrospect, I was dead wrong. The magicians did not use this series as a launching off point. Instead, Vernon's Triumph became "Michael Ammar's Triumph." Everyone parroted his presentation of every trick. And instead of seeing an elevation in standards of the basic core repertoire of magicians, we saw great tricks butchered badly.

In retrospect, what seemed like a good idea wasn't.

Having said that, my good friend Nathan Marsh in Florida cut his teeth on those videos. He has built a large library. He has sought out great teachers. He is doing everything he can to contribute to the world of magic.

So, yes, they did some good.

But how many Nathan's are there? How many Nathan's are there for every person who has since butchered a classic, resold one of these ideas as their own with minor variation, or simply watched the dvds to seek some secrets?

I have no doubt that E was a great place for you. But an exception does not prove a rule. Likewise, I would be intellectually dishonest to think that these two E guys represented everyone. But I will say I have seen many E buyers, and they tend to exhibit traits closer to the one's I recorded.

So, that leads me to think there is a problem with the source. Some people may be able to move beyond it, and I am grateful for that and happy for them. But when we see this pattern of negative behavior repeated again and again, and a company who is far more interested in moving product than even taking a moment to give a nod to the history of our art - I think we see from whence the problem stems.

Personally, I'd love to know (in simple terms, without all the bollocks) why you dislike Ellusionist so much. A PM would be fine as there's no need to railroad this thread any longer. Almost without exception, the posts I've read of yours on this and other sites always amount to the same thing. True, you could level the same accusation at me, but I have stated why and am more than happy to elaborate on my beliefs...what about you?


Respectfully


Rabid

I don't hate E. I find some of their decisions in regard to crediting and permission to be repugnant, but that's about as strong as it gets for me. I honestly have not decided how I feel about their sponsorship of Celebracabara, nor have I decided how I feel about the tutorials. On the one hand, it does have the potential to be an interesting experiment. On the other, it could be a selling (giving) of secrets just to make a buck.

Their follow through will say a lot.

I have tried on this forum to be pretty even handed. I think there is value in questioning E - as there is value in questioning anything that impacts our art. But I do not share the blind and automatic hatred that others do - on the matter of principle. Likewise, there are some fabulously passionate E apologists on these boards, and while I respect their love of the organization, I only wish their feelings were tempered with a little more "reality".

I care about magic. When I see magicians (or laypeople) behave in a manner which shows a lack of respect for our art, I want to know why. Time and time again, those inquiries have led back to E. I will be the first to admit, I have encountered a couple of very thoughtful people who also have them in their past - but based on my personal experience - I encounter a greater lack of respect for magic from people associated with E.

Is this their fault?

Up for discussion. I think that they could go further in helping to instill a respect for magic, but based on what people close to Brad have told me, as that would not grow his bottom line, it's not going to happen.

That disappoints me. So much potential to do some good. Thrown away for something as common as money.

Brad Henderson

 

[Brad Henderson]

I
I'm losing patience with you continually insulting my intelligence and my integrity while simultaneously implying I have no experience in the larger magic community simply because of where I shop....

But according to your logic, I'm lying through my teeth about all that. All because of where I shop.

No where did I say this. I can judge you based only on the words you have written here. May I suggest, respectfully, that you contain the debate to the issues at hand without choosing to take them personally. We are talking about a company and it's practices and how that has influenced our community. If you see yourself in these stories, that is not my fault. If you do not, then there should be no reason for this heated exchange.

But, and I am not being snide here - I was thinking about this the other day, I would love to find out more about the people who post here. How old are you? How long have you been doing magic? How many shows do you do a year? How many conventions do you go to? Who are your teachers/mentors/influences? Do you belong to a magic club?

B

 

[Steerpike]

You wrote off an entire community with one stroke. The implication I got was that I and anyone else affiliated with Ellusionist are all the same.

I admit it was probably more a Pavlovian response on my part than anything else. I've been put on trial (metaphorically speaking) numerous times for things I didn't do simply because of who I associated with. The worst being the accusations and attacks that have been levelled at me from people I once thought were friends when they learned I was a member of the PUA community. It takes its toll.

That said, I still don't believe you think very highly of me or my intelligence. That comes mostly from the fact that you thought the opening post in this thread was dead serious despite the fact that I contradicted the values I've been the most open and honest about since day one in the very first paragraph. It gave me the feeling that you never respected me enough to ever really listen to me. And it wasn't just you. I got that feeling from a lot of people who have been around long enough and heard me shoot my mouth off enough to know better. But people went with the knee-jerk reaction, much like I did not more than an hour or two ago. No one's immune, but that doesn't mean it isn't disheartening to see it happen in myself and others.

In effect, I accidentally held a mirror up and showed how reactionary everyone here gets, myself included.

I'll answer your questions in PM. As it is, I'm tired of this thread and I'm done posting in it. It's gotten more mileage than any real constructive thread that I or anyone else has attempted to post in the past, and I'm just as guilty of fueling the fire. To be honest, it's kind of depressing to see all this and I regret ever writing the damn thing.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Sorry, you cannot expect your readership to take your entire posting history into account when they read one of your posts. All we have is your words to go on, and you managed to post something that MANY people have believed - and one that honestly I find no reason why you shouldn't. Contrary to your belief, I have not compiled the "Steerpike" dossier which contains a summation of your points to date and the philosophy one can reasonably be inferred.


But lest we get ahead of ourselves, don't pat yourself on the back too soon. There was no mirror held up to anyone because your point proved nothing.

There is exposure in the world.
Some people think what E is doing qualifies as exposure. That is a topic worth discussing as their actions might be reasonably construed as such. Some may agree, others won't. Discussion helps all of us come to an understanding.

Some people (seriously) think what P & T do qualifies as exposure. That is a topic worth discussing however once one considers their actions one sees that they cannot be reasonably construed as such. (The people who make this claim often have no idea what P & T have done, or believe that the "routines" exposed are real routines. This is an argument long settled and only those who do not know - and that could be any body - would hold this to be true. Many people still do. Don't take it personally that some may have concluded you did as well. As I stated, you are but a serious of bleeps and blips in cyber space. Until you tell us about your background, you should expect people to draw conclusions about you and your experience that may not be accurate. But I digress.)

In both cases, the allegation is worthy of consideration. However, the P & T allegation is an off repeated misunderstanding, the work of a succesful marketing ploy if anything.

You cannot blame readers for your failure to communicate. It is not an assessment of your intelligence at all. It's a simple fact. When you write, you are responsible for ensuring your content is delivered effectively. Even the best writers fail in this task. But blaming the readership is poor form (unless the reader is being deliberately obtuse.)

It is also disingenuous to play the "I'm taking my ball and going home" card. There are real issues here, and one's that are worthy of discussion. However, in order to have a valid discussion, we need to insure that the information on which we are drawing our conclusions is accurate. Many times you have based your conclusions on inaccurate information or (by your own admission) your own "theories."

This is fine, but you cannot expect to not be challenged on these positions. It is the nature of discourse.

Please do not take it personally.

Brad Henderson

 

[Steerpike]

Brad, I'm neither patting myself on the back no running home crying. I'm just tired and sick of talking myself hoarse when no one is listening. I'm tired of talking to an empty room.

You say I'm not making myself clear. Let me tip my hand completely then.

What I didn't expect to happen and what has me feeling sick to my stomach is the fact that this bad-joke-gone-wrong garnered more responses faster than any attempt at intelligent constructive discourse. People have posted one thread after another to help the community, and every single one of them quietly slips off the front page where they die a cold, lonely death.

This is totally beyond my or anyone else's control because the majority of people don't want an intelligent discussion. They want drama. And I, in my arrogance, gave it to them.

I've already admitted to being guilty of fueling the fire here, but I don't have the werewithal to watch this anymore. I'm done. It's depressing me just to see this on the front page.

My objective bombed. My intentions only created more ill will and fighting. And I've only really succeeded at embarassing myself. To put it mildly, I f*cked up. Is that what you want me to say?

Not like it matters, because my heart just isn't in it anymore. I want to let this abortion of a thread slip into the graveyard while I take a couple days to go out and wash the dirt off. Will you at least give me that without holding it over my head?

 

[CoryOOreo]

Mod?!?!?

 

[adjones]

No, they're definitely not. Tarquin Churchill and the YouTube kiddies are a lot worse than they are. Most of the methods they expose are theirs, or aren't used by very many magicians (found 'em in a book, more than likely ), and they're darn entertaining while they do it! I don't have any problem with them anymore...

That was to all the people that really think they're bad exposers, not you, Steerpike. And you made me sad with you apology!

 

[The Dark Angel]

All,

Per the request of Steerpike, I am closing this thread.

Thanks,
TDA