This is just plain SICKENING

[jimbowmanjr]

The dilemma is this: If you continue to support the knock-offs eventually creators are just going to stop releasing material and sell it to people they trust.

You can use your same argument for shopping at a local magic shop. If you don't continue to shop there then they aren't going to make any money. Likewise if you buy a knockoff then the artist who originally came up with the idea, ironed it out and brought it to the market is no longer making any money.

What is a secret worth? Some could argue certain secrets are priceless but for all practical purposes a price tag is attached to a secret and sold to the general public so that the hard-working magicians/creators out there can continue to put food on the table. Any chance I have to buy directly from the creator I will take advantage of in order to put the most money into their pockets instead of it going to all the middle men.

--Jim

 

[CDarklock]

The dilemma is this: If you continue to support the knock-offs eventually creators are just going to stop releasing material and sell it to people they trust.

That's called economics. If I try to sell you something for $50 that you can get elsewhere for $20, I don't get to sell it to you. Saying that it's somehow immoral for you to buy the $20 product is stupid. I have to either convincingly explain to you that the $50 product is objectively better to the tune of $30... or drop my price to whatever I can convincingly explain.

Unless, of course, you're a sucker. Then I can just tell you that it's a special offer for a limited time only with an easy payment plan and no credit check. Buy one, get the second free! (Translation: "still not worth it at half the price".)

Bottom line, "support the creator" is not a reason to pay more money for the same thing. If you want to support the creator, go to his show. Buy things he releases that can't be knocked off and are worth what you pay. But when you tell people you'll pay more than twice as much for the same plastic garbage just because it's got someone's name on it, you're part of the problem.

If you sell something, charge a fair price. If you buy something, pay a fair price. Everything else is hype.

a price tag is attached to a secret and sold to the general public so that the hard-working magicians/creators out there can continue to put food on the table.

What about my table?

I can get your one signature effect... or Bob's one signature effect... or Jim's one signature effect...

Or I can buy knockoffs of all three and grab a cheeseburger with my change.

Whose table is more important? Yours, Bob's, Jim's, or MINE?

I think I know what you're going to answer, and it's not what I'm sure you know I'm going to answer.

Note Criss Angel's levitation DVD. He describes an apparatus. You could buy a similar apparatus elsewhere for several hundred dollars, or you could build it yourself from his instructions for about $125. That means he actually cares about my table. Say what you want about him - I don't like him, either - that's what I expect from someone who honestly wants to help me become a better magician. A lesser magician would contact the people who make that apparatus, get his name stamped on the side, and jack up the price. And I'm sick of that.

 

[jimbowmanjr]

I agree with you on certain points, most notably the only difference being a name stamped on the side to increase the value of an object. Take a car for example, although not knockoffs there are reasonable comparisons. You could buy a Honda Accord totally loaded for around 30k or pay 60k for a BMW or Mercedes with similar although not exactly the same options. You are paying for the brand name.

To me at least it is different when it comes to tricks and secrets. Lets take Dean Dill's Triangle for example. He charges roughly 600-750 depending on the options you are getting. Now the coins through table isn't his original idea but this is his take on it with completely packaged coins and table ready to go. Now if Magic Makers comes along and makes something very similar to it with their knock off coins and a cheaply crafted table they sell for 250 do you pick that one up and tell Dean "sorry man these guys are making it for 1/3 of the price even though I realize they are completely ripping off your setup"? I would rather save up and support someone like Dean who has done more for magic than words can even describe. To run off and buy some knock off of his trick is only supporting more people getting ripped off by guys like Magic Makers. You should just send him an e-mail with a picture of yourself flipping him the bird while you are at it....

I am not trying to preach my ethics or force you to agree with me here I am just noting my disagreement with the notion that anyone should support buying knockoffs of original creations.

If you sell something, charge a fair price. If you buy something, pay a fair price. Everything else is hype.

So I am curious what is a fair price? Is there a limitation on how much you would pay before considering to buy a stolen idea repackaged in a cheaper format? Why stop there? Why not just not pay for it at all and learn from a tutorial? Either way the guy who originally came up with the idea isn't getting a dime from your purchase or download.

About the Angel argument. Lets say there is a guy out there who has completely and totally copied his entire DVD for the levitation and is selling it for $25 now what do you do? Next week there is a guy selling it on Ebay for $10 in a PDF format, so go there next?

People are going to do whatever they want regardless, including supporting creators and buying directly from them instead of buying from guys who copy their stuff and sell it at half price.

As to who's table is more important? It is possible to get the things you want from magic the old fashioned way by saving up and setting goals to buy the big things in magic. No one's table is more important than mine and I have never bought something and put myself into a financial pinch just to learn a trick. You can save and buy selectively and like you said, avoid the hype.

--Jim

 

[CDarklock]

You could buy a Honda Accord totally loaded for around 30k or pay 60k for a BMW or Mercedes with similar although not exactly the same options. You are paying for the brand name.

You've clearly never owned one. Go test drive a high-end Mercedes or BMW, then come back and tell me that with a straight face.

I would rather save up and support someone like Dean who has done more for magic than words can even describe.

I would rather support the kid with the $5 a week allowance who wants to learn, and a $20 effect will give him six more weeks to practice than a $50 effect. Because there are a lot more of those kids, and collectively they will do more for magic than Dean possibly could.

I am not trying to preach my ethics or force you to agree with me here I am just noting my disagreement with the notion that anyone should support buying knockoffs of original creations.

Same here. There's a dilemma, because as magicians we all want to support other magicians, and we should.

But the buyer is also a magician. When you say he should pay too much for effects because they have the inventor's face on the package, I call shenanigans. As another magician, the buyer deserves your support, too. Suggesting that he should give his money to someone else whom you think has done more for magic is simply not your place.

Advancing your art does not give you a license to take money you don't deserve from other people. When any magician invented his greatest trick, he almost certainly didn't do it to put in a box and sell, he did it to perform in his show - which he did, probably for several years, before he ever told anyone else how it was done. He made thousands from that trick, and then sold it to hand-selected students for thousands more - and now he wants to charge me extra, too? I don't think so. There is not one single trick you can buy out there that the inventor hasn't already been well compensated for creating, and I simply don't see why I need to keep compensating him when an inexpensive alternative exists.

So I am curious what is a fair price?

A price that nobody else can significantly undercut with a comparable product.

See, once you've driven the BMW, you'll see that the Honda Accord is crap. You won't compare it to the BMW, because they're not even remotely similar. You will probably accept that you can't afford the BMW, and drive the Accord instead, but you will still know that your Accord is not and can never be a BMW. The products are not comparable. The price is different, because the product is different.

Knockoff magic effects are not terribly different. They look the same. They act the same. Why don't they cost the same? I understand why a book from one author costs more than a book from another author; he's a better author. I understand why a DVD from one performer costs more than a DVD from another performer; he's a better performer. But are you actually trying to tell me THIS is a better piece of cheap plastic than THAT piece of cheap plastic?

Because I simply don't believe you. The proof of books, DVDs, and cars is right there in front of me. I can see and feel and hear the difference. But if you look at the real and knockoff plastic versions of "Sword of the Ring", as I did this weekend, they're the same. I actually suspect they came off the same production line.

About the Angel argument. Lets say there is a guy out there who has completely and totally copied his entire DVD for the levitation and is selling it for $25 now what do you do?

What do you mean "copied"? It's an illegal pirate DVD? No, I don't buy it. But unless you can show me a patent for this effect, the knockoff version is perfectly legal.

It is possible to get the things you want from magic the old fashioned way by saving up and setting goals to buy the big things in magic.

The old-fashioned way is to build your own. Just as the old-fashioned way was to invent your tricks, not buy them.

 

[Corey]

one moment

correct me if I'm wrong, but most magicians don't copyright there gimmicks, because other people could just go to the government building down the street and see exactly how this gimmick works, right?
On top of this, you can't copyright an effect, because it is an idea, ideas can't be copyrighted because they are in the imagination.
Where MM could just be taking advantage of this...
Thus they are not doing anything illegal, but are doing something without another's permission.
Someone obviously worked there butts off to get this effect, and to have it being claimed as someone else's property, it is then seen as "imorral", or unfair to their profession.
NOBODY can do anything about this, if we look at this as a magic "community", then we just have to suck it up and take the punch to the gut... or... BURN EM' AT THE STAKE!!!
Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Chicken]

YOu are wrong. burning at the stake is way outdated

 

[jimbowmanjr]

correct me if I'm wrong, but most magicians don't copyright there gimmicks, because other people could just go to the government building down the street and see exactly how this gimmick works, right?
On top of this, you can't copyright an effect, because it is an idea, ideas can't be copyrighted because they are in the imagination.
Where MM could just be taking advantage of this...
Thus they are not doing anything illegal, but are doing something without another's permission.
Someone obviously worked there butts off to get this effect, and to have it being claimed as someone else's property, it is then seen as "imorral", or unfair to their profession.
NOBODY can do anything about this, if we look at this as a magic "community", then we just have to suck it up and take the punch to the gut... or... BURN EM' AT THE STAKE!!!
Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. There are quite a few effects out there that actually have copyrights attached to them as well as many gaffs/props/etc. If someone really wanted to go to a copyright office and go through that entire process just to learn how something is done....more power to 'em.

There are also several things covered under intellectual property law. I know there are a few lawyers and legal students floating around here that can give this a much better brief than I can so I will leave it at that.

The reason you see companies like Magic Makers going out and directly ripping off DVD's, props, and gimmicks is because they are counting on the fact that magicians don't want to go through the hassle of hiring a lawyer, filing a suit, going to court, and paying unbelievable legal fees in the hopes that the judge will rule in their favor. They are counting on the magicians and creators "sucking it up" and taking a gut shot. They are also counting on you, the consumer, to support them by purchasing all of their repackaged and freshly tagged ripped off material. The magicians/creators are never going to be able to stop this from happening and from what I can tell most people are more interested in saving a few bucks than they are about ensuring the actual creator is giving his or her due for their work.

--Jim

 

[Corey]

thanks

I understand what you mean, and I haven't taken a look, but are any of the effects that MM have "stolen" even copyrighted? I've only seen one in the past few months that I have been a magician(king rising levitation), and I haven't really gone digging for much information... But it almost sounds like these guys are taking advantage of the copyrighting laws, that magicians are almost ignoring because of the all famous magicians code, and respect that they take for granted...
I'm not putting anything down, I very much respect the magicians code. I just feel that some magicians are leaving the copyright laws behind and are counting on respect and loyalty to the magic communitee... Thus forgetting the slobs and criminals out there that absolutely love the idea of doing something to make a quick buck whilst "pissing people off"...

 

[jimbowmanjr]

But it almost sounds like these guys are taking advantage of the copyrighting laws, that magicians are almost ignoring because of the all famous magicians code, and respect that they take for granted....

This is likely exactly what they are doing from what I have read and been told from various conversations on the Magic Cafe. There is a ton of crap spewed on the Cafe but once in a good while you can find a hidden gem of truth here and there. MM knows exactly what they can and cannot copy and get away with it in the legal world. There are obviously people who are willing to buy their stuff as well who either don't know or don't care.

--Jim

 

[John Michael]

It's interesting. The Morgan thing.... I don't think we know all the details there. From what I understood, Morgan performed that guys trick. I may be mistaken, and I will stand corrected if wrong.

The only thing you can do to fight the problem is to promise not to buy a magic maker product. You can also spread the word.

I sort of remember a story that I believe David Roth told me. A magician took another entity, maybe it was another magician, to court. Said magician was laughed out of court. There is no protection for intellectual property. There is only protection for written and produced materials.

You can even look it up on wikopedia.com (sp?). Magic Makers makes a lot of money doing what they do. And they are nearly, if not, the highest selling line of magic products out there. Keep in mind, it's also the job of the magician on the dvd to give credit where credit is due. It's not just Rob Stiff wronging hard working magicians.

So do you stay pure or save a few bucks? Purists like you and me are in the minority. What if you run a website that sells magic. Do you only sell pure stuff, or do you do what you know will sell, so you can make a living?

 

[CDarklock]

So do you stay pure or save a few bucks?

Purity is a luxury. When you can walk into the magic shop and buy whatever you need without checking the price, you get all sorts of wonderful benefits, like the ability to try lots of different decks of cards, or to see whether that $200 invisible thread reel is really worth it. When you buy some piece of crap, you can laugh and say "oh, well, bad luck then - I'll go back tomorrow".

I bought a book of card forces last week, thinking I could learn one or two new ones, and it spends an awful lot of time talking about how to do it with a Svengali deck. 90% of the information in it comes with every Svengali deck you buy. So shouldn't it be called "Card Forces With a Svengali Deck"? That was one of the other titles, which I didn't buy because I don't like the Svengali deck. I feel like I wasted $8.

But you know what? I don't care about $8. I spend $8 on coffee in the morning. ($8.92, actually.) So when I waste $8 on something that sucks, I can laugh about it. However, when you only have $20 to spend in the first place, and you spend $8 of it on crap - that really sucks.

It's not people like you and me who are buying knockoffs. The question of whether to buy "Sinful" or "Cion Thru Can" is not a question we ask ourselves; we know that "Sinful" is going to have higher production values and all-around better quality. After all, the knockoff doesn't even know how to spell "coin".

No, the person buying "Cion Thru Can" is doing it because it's $8.95 and "Sinful" is $29.50, but they're the same effect. Of course, "same effect" is rather different from "same trick", but that's a subtlety. The elephant in the room is that you only have $20. You can't buy "Sinful" in the first place. It's simply not part of your decision-making process. The question doesn't even get asked. "Should I do something I can't do?" is, after all, a stupid question.

It's very easy for the grown-ups to stand around with our jobs and paychecks saying "oh, yes, always buy your tricks from the original inventors". But when you say something like that to a kid trying to learn magic on his weekly allowance, the only thing he hears is "your problems don't matter to us, and we don't care if you ever do any good tricks".

If it's so important to you that nobody buy a knockoff trick, next time you see someone starting to buy one, offer to cover the price difference for the real trick out of your own pocket. If it's not that important to you, then it's not about purity at all - it's about controlling other people's lives, which you have no right to do.