ok i think i get it. so a good example would be David Copperfield's 'Laser Illusion'? but i know tens of magicians doing it and without permission of DC himself so its only morally wrong? what about this magician himself figuring out and preforming Jason Latimer's 'Laser Fiction' with in a week. that would be morally wrong too not? so then i am being morally wrong to a magician who is morally wrong too?? i by the way asked him again and he approved what i already said that he really wouldnt care about me performing the noticed effects if i would know how, like i said.
Two effects I'd die to know more about!
- Thread starter Aviva
- Start date
Yes, you are being ethically wrong. And so was he. And so are all the cretins who have stolen the Fearson/Copperfield idea. But two wrongs do not make a right.
If your friend didn't mind you doing his stuff, he would have told you.
He didn't.
So you went behind his back and tried to get us to play "exposure by committee."
I for one find that reprehensible.
If your friend didn't mind you doing his stuff, he would have told you.
He didn't.
So you went behind his back and tried to get us to play "exposure by committee."
I for one find that reprehensible.
but you guys were the ones saying that he didnt exactly give me permission. i just had him approve it. he even said like: of course you can, you know the deal dont you". and i dont want anyone to just expose it, i want to know if there is anything similar and where i could get it but apparently no one has any clues.
somethin else. what if one would ask you:"can you do that trick too?" wouldnt the best reply to just do the trick even though not right away (put like one or two effects in between the moment they ask and when you do it) even if the effect has not been for sale? i think as long as you dont sell someone elses effect (method or show) and keep it a secret and make it your own (in performance) there is nothing wrong. preformance makes the magic and therefor you cant rip off anything if you didnt steal the performance. thats my pov. what if a original effect stays totally unknown. you performing would only promote it.
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There are a few effects that I've seen done by fellow magicians, that I like.
They kindly tell me the name of the effect, and I'll purchase it, not to perform in public, because all the fellow magicians I know I have respect for and they have respect for me, and if a fellow magician is working in the same town/area that I'm in, then I don't want to do the same effects as him.
The average spectator might have seen his show, and then sees mine, and might say, "You know your just like that other guy, you do the same tricks, etc...."
My deal is sometimes I fall in love with an effect so much, that I will get it, and learn it just to perform for my-self, and never show anybody. That might sound crazy but it's true, but once again.. I'm Crazy..lol
They kindly tell me the name of the effect, and I'll purchase it, not to perform in public, because all the fellow magicians I know I have respect for and they have respect for me, and if a fellow magician is working in the same town/area that I'm in, then I don't want to do the same effects as him.
The average spectator might have seen his show, and then sees mine, and might say, "You know your just like that other guy, you do the same tricks, etc...."
My deal is sometimes I fall in love with an effect so much, that I will get it, and learn it just to perform for my-self, and never show anybody. That might sound crazy but it's true, but once again.. I'm Crazy..lol
If he gave you permission, then you can. If he didn't, it doesn't matter whether you want to expose it or not, the fact that you want to be similar to him - as Brad said - "You want to do a trick similar to your friends. That is wrong. Inspiration should leads us to set ourselves apart from our peers - not make us more like them."
I don't get asked if I can do so and so trick, mainly because I don't try to copy others, so I don't get likened to people. Anyway, do you want to be the magician who can perform unique and amazing feats, or the magician who can perform the same thing as the other magician they saw?
The question here is not about method. It is, as Brad again has mentioned before, a question of stealing someone's "creative vision", if I may use that term again. You may be using your own presentation of the same effect - but what else have you stolen? Well, magicians often spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars finding the right material for them. They spend hours upon hours to research material and find what they believe is the best and most suitable - a process that can take a long time. This is also what you're stealing - you're essentially stealing the work they've put into their routine - and in doing so you're worse of as a magician for it. The key thing here is that you're taking advantage of their work - their research, and their vision in developing the effect from wherever they finally found it, and their effort in developing into a great effect, that finally impressed and inspired you. Even if you are not taking their presentation, you are still stealing someone's work.
Work is reflected not only in the final result, but in the process. And just as you wouldn't plagiarise someone's law essay in its final copy, so too would you do your own research in writing your own essay. And so it is in magic as well.
is that not where credits are for? of course those have to be given. i do not know any effect which didnt have the original as best known performance. yes, people ripped off the Laser Illusion because they are imititing David Copperfield's act completely but David Copperfield's performance is still the famous one, same with Latimer's Laser Fiction. if the effect is not well known and not been released, any other performance is a huge promotion for the original. i just dont think its stealing unless you say its an original by yours. like if you say out loud you pay something with someone elses money, its the cashiers choice to take it or not. what you actually say is if people sold their effect and you do it without buying it, you are being wrong too.
First - what makes you think someone wants their trick - their original creation - the tool they use to put bread and butter on their table to be promoted by YOU? Most great magicians make their livings PERFORMING their magic, not selling it. (I know, that's hard to believe when the only magicians you have heard off all have one trick DVDs). Magicians make their livings performing magic. By definition, magic should be unique and special. Magicians spend their entire lives coming up with material that make them unique and special - if you want to see it, you have to hire THEM. And you want to take that away from them because you can promote their piece?
No,
What we are saying is if you see another magician do a trick and you want to do it yourself - you need to ask his or her permission.
Period.
Always.
Double period and two backslashes for dramatic effect.
No,
What we are saying is if you see another magician do a trick and you want to do it yourself - you need to ask his or her permission.
Period.
Always.
Double period and two backslashes for dramatic effect.
i still dont agree. and it doesnt matter because i got permission so i dont do anythings wrong.
this is what i think is wrong:
Stealing anything by not giving credits or selling something that isnt your;
Immitating a magicians act and presentation;
Using a magicians trademark illusion as your own.
if you get rid of all magicians who do atleast one single trick they didnt ask permission for or didnt buy which gives them permission only you would be left aparently.
this is what i think is wrong:
Stealing anything by not giving credits or selling something that isnt your;
Immitating a magicians act and presentation;
Using a magicians trademark illusion as your own.
if you get rid of all magicians who do atleast one single trick they didnt ask permission for or didnt buy which gives them permission only you would be left aparently.
So if you spent three years creating your perfect routine, you would be perfectly happy if I came along to one of your shows and started lifting all your work?
Its amazing how stubborn you are, everyone here says its wrong yet you still think for some reason you are right, just deal with it
He has established what he is and seems proud of it.
As he grows up he will learn that he must either change or continually find doors closing before him.
He has chosen the unethical path.
It's his choice.
As he grows up he will learn that he must either change or continually find doors closing before him.
He has chosen the unethical path.
It's his choice.
not everyone on t11 posted in this thread so you can not say that everyone says that, even if they'd do. and maybe if you try to look it from my pov you see what i mean. it is like believing in real psychics, obviously most magicians dont, and if you say that you met a real psychic without a doubt, they will all be getting against you because its ethically wrong too. ofcourse it may just be me, and might been me for lots of years already, and so then i like to aplogize for it.
let say you copy a whole show, like all effects, put your presentation to it that works for you, your own setting/scenic design, i would be even happy if you give me credits! i can perform effects with tens of different patters, making the audience believe it are tens of different tricks while the sleights are exactely teh same. if you copy a show in a way i just described the shows wont look the same from a audience pov. and if you give me credits for the whole show i only have profits. imagine something liike: "Toine's Mastermind Show by Brad" but then surnames included.
compare it to the music industry this time. people doing covers of songs, not selling it, are only cause profit for the original. once one buys the rights and covers the song without credits are given what happens a lot now, the original doesnt get any knowledge profits from it and may even stay totally unknown.
Brad, thanks for that.
let say you copy a whole show, like all effects, put your presentation to it that works for you, your own setting/scenic design, i would be even happy if you give me credits! i can perform effects with tens of different patters, making the audience believe it are tens of different tricks while the sleights are exactely teh same. if you copy a show in a way i just described the shows wont look the same from a audience pov. and if you give me credits for the whole show i only have profits. imagine something liike: "Toine's Mastermind Show by Brad" but then surnames included.
compare it to the music industry this time. people doing covers of songs, not selling it, are only cause profit for the original. once one buys the rights and covers the song without credits are given what happens a lot now, the original doesnt get any knowledge profits from it and may even stay totally unknown.
Brad, thanks for that.
From the point of basically every single reputable magician you could name, that is the agreed perspective. So yeah, we pretty much can say that everyone says that - everyone with experience in the industry.
i asked all online magic contacts on msn so far fifteen disagreed with you and two didnt know but said you were too strict for sure. i do not know why, i only linked them this thread and they dont know me as aviva as well. i dont know why over here everyone agrees with you but i can tell that some of the contacts are reputable magicians, over here that is. i guess it is just us.
one of the reactions:
"That doesn't make sense, not in the slightest meaning of the word. First off, if they say that something from books can be uniquely theirs, that means they stole it. Second off, watching others their magic can be a great way to get new ideas. Do you really think Richiardi would've done the Sawing a Woman in Half his way if he never seen it before? Same with all classic magicians and their effects. I've seen the exact same classic stage routine done tons of times but it's the magician's performance that made one the best and the other one not-as-good, even if the last one was technically better. And there is no single spectator that would've said that they were similar. That's something that doesn't change in this world."
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Right, can you name their names? Do they have the habit of stealing too? Have they ever had their work stolen from them? I'm not simply talking about people who released a trick five years ago. I'm talking about the best in the magic industry. Go ask Alain Nu what he thinks about stealing. Or Jason England. And get back to me.
I understand what this person is trying to say, but I'd still argue against it. Go to a couple conventions with competitions and see how different the 10th performer's split fan production you see feels from the 1st. Or the dove production. Or the ace assembly.
What Brad was saying is that books, especially older ones, contain tons of material that not only still works with today's audiences, but has been overlooked by many because of the get-it-while-it's-hot online magic sales model.
Further, it is very difficult to copy a performer based on a routine written up in their book. This directly opposes the ease with which magic students can cut and paste a performance from a DVD into their life, whether it fits or not.
So I'd reiterate what Brad said. Find some books you've never heard of, maybe even by magicians who don't have a DVD released in the last 10-15 years, and learn to find your own amazing works.
Then when you see someone else performing, you won't feel a need to do something they did because you'll have a confidence in the material you've sought out on your own.
Or do what you're doing, but expect to stop growing sooner than later.
Pj
-No, they didn't steal it. Firstly, they bought the book, they didn't take the routine from someone else who had bought the book. Secondly, it means they took it and made it their own.
-Second off, that's called stealing.
-Third, those magicians actually buy the material.
PjPinsonnault said:
finally someone who made sense to me! thank you!!
dont get me wrong but i do have quite some books (also 'unknown' ones). and i think i said enough times that i wouldnt just copycat anyone and am only out for the trick, nothing more or less of the act, so in the end it would end the same as if i learnt it from a book. that is just my point of view. but i know exactly what youre talking about and i appreciate that a lot!! thanks!
praetoritevong said:
seems like you still dont get the points of view. ask Pj.