What are we making magic?

[Simon_Magic]

Hi guys!

Some of u know me and most of you don't and will probably take great offence or will at least think this thread pointless, but i write it to make you think.

No matter how you look at it, magic is a dying art. We on this board and many others have been privileged to learn this amazing talent. My issue is however, the fact that this board in particular was meant as a way of connecting the underground/street magic and close up magic community. This has been done to great effect, however it has become a form of social networking with magic as the topic, rather than a place that people can come to find ideas and inspiration on how to improve.

I would also like to draw your attention to a magician everyone here has heard of: Jay Sankey. I recently watched the hardcore preview, and whilst the tricks where impressive, the video was completely opposite to Jay. He has had to change his look on magic and style just so the new magicians will pay any attention to him because if a preview vid doesnt have the magician standing on his own against a wall or the shot of a city it means the magic isnt cool enough. We are losing sight of the art we love in videos with funky music and camera shots and buying tricks with gimmicks we convince ourselves we will use but never do, or do but forget about after a week.

This is not here to annoy anyone or to cause arguements. I write it with the hope that we will start to help each other again, and to support all artists, not just the ones with awesome tats and cool hair.

Thanks for reading.

Simon_Magic

 

[AndrewJ]

It has always struck me that this overall form of close-up magic (with whatever other adjectives it gets) is all about being social. On some level, there is a huge difference between a card manipulator performing a silent miser's dream routine from a stage and a close-up worker performing Pressure up close with a spectator's phone.

The social element seems to have always been important to this style of close-up. If you try to perform Pressure as a silent routine, someone is likely to get angry about you taking their phone! It extends beyond that, but I'm trying to keep this light.

As for Sankey - browsing his Twitter feed left me with the impression that he is not a big fan of "larger than life" magic. Him taking up the "street" image isn't too far out of line with his comments there.

 

[JButterfield]

As far as magic being a dying art, I think no more so than some others - I mean, how many contemporary painters are really in the public eye? Can anyone name three stars of the musical theatre? At least there are a handful of magicians in the collective consciousness.

WRT Jay Sankey (and he's lecturing a few blocks from me on Sunday, as coincidence would have it), and the current "street magic" aesthetic, it seems to me that certain styles take over things now and then. Remember when everyone in Seattle wore a plaid shirt, never washed their hair and started grunge bands? Or everyone was in an indie band like the Pixies? Or hair metal? or a Metallica-type speed metal (or thrash, or whatever it was called) band? There are always fads that capture the zeitgeist, become overdone, and get replaced. The current "brick wall and city streets, performing for a camera" magic will go as well. Maybe restaurant magic will be the next big thing, maybe busking, maybe something else entirely.

Magic suffers (imho) from several things.

First, an influx of dilettants who want to "freak people out", not entertain, and proceed too quickly without a solid grounding in theory and history. The current trend of promising instant gratification (the "you'll perform your first trick in one hour" kind of ads) is ludicrous. With musical instruments, they're honest enough to say it will take practice and dedication, and you'll be terrible for the first while.

Another thing that I think may do more harm than good is the pressure to be original before one learns their craft. 14 year olds, with maybe six months of experience are being told to 'be original.' Would we do this is any other performing art? Is a guitarist told to make up his own songs, chords and harmonies before he's learned to play someone else's song? Are actors told to write their own plays and direct themselves? The only way to learn any art is first through emulation. Perform a solid routine as it was performed by its creator, and learn what makes it tick - why it's structured as it is, why the patter is as it is, and the blocking. Make changes with great caution, and to serve a purpose rather than for their own sake. If you've never performed a great routine, you may never know what it feels like to perform a great routine. Lawrence Olivier said that the actor "must steal" from other actors if that actor's interpretation is more grounded and revealing than any they can come up with themselves. Mozart said "I really do not aim at any originality" and Rodin said "I invent nothing. I rediscover." And these are giants in their fields. We could all learn from this, and from the giants in our own field. Originality is best when it solves a problem in a new and better way, when it digs deeper than others. Originality for its own sake might give us Romeo as an over the top gay man* with Tourettes Syndrome - it might be original, but not very good.

The disdain for history and the works of the great before us serves no good purpose, imho. There is some good work being produced today without question - but that does not invalidate the works that have come before. Larry Jennings, Dai Vernon, David Roth, Tommy Wonder, Ed Marlo and many others have a wealth of knowledge and a ton of solid, worker's material. There is a ton of knowledge and killer routines there for the taking, if only people could see through the lack of 'extreme' names, and that they didn't wear Affliction t-shirts. These formed the foundation of what we do today, and their tricks still play. Heck, I do large chunks of Johnny Thompson's cups and balls routine, and those chunks kill.

Some people may get off to a bad start - they might begin at a site that tells them they'll "melt people's brains in 30 minutes" and that the goal is brain melting, not entertaining. That anything that doesn't come with an "xtreme" name done with kewl looking playing cards is useless, and that the vanguard of magic is to work for a camera, and not people. I would hope that they discover the broader world of this fine art form. I love a lot about it. I count myself extremely fortunate to live near a great magic shop, with a staff that steered me in the right direction.

Sorry for the rant.

* this is not intended to be homophobic in any way, nor a swipe at those suffering with Tourettes syndrome - was the clearest example I could think of to illustrate that originality for its own sake can be bad.

 

[praetoritevong]

Hi guys!

Some of u know me and most of you don't and will probably take great offence or will at least think this thread pointless, but i write it to make you think.

No matter how you look at it, magic is a dying art. We on this board and many others have been privileged to learn this amazing talent. My issue is however, the fact that this board in particular was meant as a way of connecting the underground/street magic and close up magic community. This has been done to great effect, however it has become a form of social networking with magic as the topic, rather than a place that people can come to find ideas and inspiration on how to improve.

I would also like to draw your attention to a magician everyone here has heard of: Jay Sankey. I recently watched the hardcore preview, and whilst the tricks where impressive, the video was completely opposite to Jay. He has had to change his look on magic and style just so the new magicians will pay any attention to him because if a preview vid doesnt have the magician standing on his own against a wall or the shot of a city it means the magic isnt cool enough. We are losing sight of the art we love in videos with funky music and camera shots and buying tricks with gimmicks we convince ourselves we will use but never do, or do but forget about after a week.

This is not here to annoy anyone or to cause arguements. I write it with the hope that we will start to help each other again, and to support all artists, not just the ones with awesome tats and cool hair.

Thanks for reading.

Simon_Magic

Some quick notes - No, "Magic is a dying art" is not at all a given, just an opinion.

-Judging the state of magic based on magic forums (or, indeed, the magic products that come out) is a highly erroneous measurement. When was the last time you saw Darwin Ortiz on a forum? John Carney? Arturo D'Ascanio?

These guys are some benchmarks of what we do - they carry the flag, modern masters. How can you judge magic simply based on forum participation and product releases? You can't treat one of the more popular magic forums on the web as indicative of the art because most working professionals, most masters of the art - the guys who exemplify the best of what we do - are not part of these communities - they're too busy living the art.

And how about factoring in the simple fact that guys like Jay Sankey, at the end of the day - and companies like Theory11 - exist, at least in part, to sell magic? They are brands - they are companies. Are you surprised that preview vids are made therefore with the highest standard of filmography? You shouldn't be - their goal is to sell.

But does this mean that magic is in a bad way? Perhaps, but I don't think it's as obvious as you make it. Even as T11's goal as a company is to sell products and make money - they still hold themselves to a standard.

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment behind your post, but I feel that your argument is highly illogical.

As far as magic being a dying art, I think no more so than some others - I mean, how many contemporary painters are really in the public eye? Can anyone name three stars of the musical theatre? At least there are a handful of magicians in the collective consciousness.

Yes, I can. And as for comparisons between painting and magic, the implication that painting is a dying art is, in my view, a little bit silly. The art of painting is, if anything, very much alive. One only has to visit some of the world's great art galleries to see so. Artwork, including paintings, are more and more being treated as intelligent and viable investments for the average person.

That said, again, as with above, I understand the sentiment of your post, and don't necessarily disagree with it, I think your examples are erroneous.

Something to be aware of though is that these arts that you've mentioned tend to not only have broad appeal (lots of people like "art" - as in painting, etc), but they have a particularly strong niche clientele too (think Sotheby's on a high end, and private galleries and public displays on the other). Without meaning to offend - the lack of knowledge in one individual, or even in a community of individuals, does not mean that this knowledge is not prevalent in other communities. Keep in mind here that the majority of members here are in their teens. You can't take this community and represent it as an accurate sample of the world as a whole.

And briefly - magic has always suffered from neophytes learning magic the wrong way - it's nothing new, although the points you've made are certainly valid.

 

[notsoltd]

Thank you, for that comment on Sankey! I totally agree 150,000%. I have been a Sankey fan for a long time and love his stuff (I have owned probably 15-20+ of his DVD's) and they are always awesome because it is Sankey. Whilst I do feel the way you do about the style of his new DVD Hardcore, I am still going to order it but I will say this much...

If Sankey isn't hilarious in this DVD like he is in all his others, I am going to be pissed. I like Sankey's old style.

 

[JButterfield]

Yes, I can. And as for comparisons between painting and magic, the implication that painting is a dying art is, in my view, a little bit silly. The art of painting is, if anything, very much alive. One only has to visit some of the world's great art galleries to see so. Artwork, including paintings, are more and more being treated as intelligent and viable investments for the average person.

That was my (poorly phrased) point. That there are still magicians in the popular culture (you know the two I'm thinking about) indicates to me that magic is dying no more than art or theatre are (and I don't think those are). Was just looking for some art forms whose prominence in popular culture had declined to illustrate that things aren't necessarily dying.

Just shooting from the hip on my analogies. I'm sure a more fitting one would occur if I gave it the thought it was due.

No offence taken but the inverse is also true. I'm not sure that the name recognition of today's top artists is known far beyond the art community. I'd wager that Criss Angel and David Copperfield are names that would be more recognized by the majority of people in North America than Conrad Bo, Takashi Murakami, Viola Davis and Douglas Hodge, for instance.

 

[Simon_Magic]

Thanks for everyones thoughts on the matter.

My reasoning in saying that magic is dying is not just based on Theory11. It is based around the fact that i never seem to see magicians in restaurants or clubs or...well anywhere. Whereas when i was little you couldnt go anywhere without someone wanting to show you a trick.

I do think that it is important to be social in the close up world, but people are writing comments on some posts and creating posts that are irrelevant to the art. I know as a new member i wrote and contributed to these pointless things trying to fit in to the community.

I do realise that Theory11 are all about selling their product cause thats how they make money and this is not a dig in the ribs about them. They have always replied to any questions, and always delievered products on time to me, but i must admit that some T11 products look good, but to me the gimmick is impractical or pointless. That is my only criticism of them.

Thanks,

Simon_Magic

 

[William Draven]

Simon,

While you draw some good points I think you misunderstand a key element in the business side of show. Magic for magicians like Jay Sankey must be profitable. To a more sharp point, they as a magician must be profitable. This means that the entertainer must evolve with the changing times and expectations from his target audience. You'll see this in music too. Look at Madonna for example. Look at her when she was in the early 1980's and then look at her progression to where she is now. She's been highly successful at staying with the current times, and reinventing herself. Right now, the most active target demographic with a good lot of buying power are the teens to young 30's range, and largely do to the efforts by David Blaine, Criss Angel, Derren Brown, and Cyril, the stage with it's curtains and rows of seats has been replaced by the city with its concrete sidewalks and busy citizens.

This is of course a phase, and it may last another two years, or it may last twenty. It really doesn't matter, so long as there are A) people willing to go out and perform magic for the masses and B) people in the masses willing to suspend their disbelief in order to feel the child like amaze and wonderment in a good performance.

Networking is a very healthy habit to get into practicing. It connects you with other magicians. It helps you see where your competition is, it forces you to look at your own act through the eyes of another, and it gives you inspiration for personal development. Also, in a business that's built on nepotism, it doesn't hurt to make a new friend or two. You know?

 

[praetoritevong]

That was my (poorly phrased) point. That there are still magicians in the popular culture (you know the two I'm thinking about) indicates to me that magic is dying no more than art or theatre are (and I don't think those are). Was just looking for some art forms whose prominence in popular culture had declined to illustrate that things aren't necessarily dying.

Just shooting from the hip on my analogies. I'm sure a more fitting one would occur if I gave it the thought it was due.

No offence taken but the inverse is also true. I'm not sure that the name recognition of today's top artists is known far beyond the art community. I'd wager that Criss Angel and David Copperfield are names that would be more recognized by the majority of people in North America than Conrad Bo, Takashi Murakami, Viola Davis and Douglas Hodge, for instance.

Ahh, I see, I think I misinterpreted the tone of your post slightly - my apologies on that. Yep, I certainly take your point there; although I'd add that the value/popularity of an art should not be judged solely on the prominence of its artists. Whilst you're probably right I think with your examples, the nature of magic is something that can be broadcast easier on TV (therefore gaining more coverage for the performer), as opposed to art, which I don't doubt has a larger support base overall.