Why do some spectators insist on messing with you?

[RealityOne]

Usually nobody will "false call" unless you are being a Slydini and challenging them. Read Strong Magic by Ortiz and you will see.

Although I agree with Darwin's conclusions on challenge magic, I disagree with his assessment of Slydini. Slydini used actual challenges ("you look, but you don't see... watch again, closer this time") as a means of misdirection. He controlled when the spectators watched and where they watched. BUT, Slydini always performed with an internal smile that conveyed, "I'm just joking with you." It is sort of like being taken by a conman as they tell you they are doing it and sincerely promise to give your money back at the end.

I think you guys have the wrong idea of what happened. So, I don't ever challenge my spectators.

It sounds like you've encountered spectators who watch the Masked Magician and Fool Us. They think magic is a game where the magician tries to fool (read make a fool out of) the audience and the audience tries to figure out how they do it. Your presentation and character needs to convey that you don't play that game.

I'd love to see your script or a video of your performance so I can provide some more specific ideas, but here are some things magicians can do:

1. Ask the spectators names, introduce yourself and say that you are glad to meet them.
2. Compliment them - "that is a really nice ring."
3. Ask the spectators questions about themselves - do they play cards, have they seen a magician before, did they have an uncle who did the 21 card trick, etc.
4. Start with a story. I do Chad Long's shuffling lesson (which I learned from Wayne Houchin) and talk about wanting to learn how to cheat at cards. I explain that one time in Atlantic City, I met a card cheat named Vinnie the Shark. I then explain that he wasn't what I expected because he looked like Danny DeVito and "the Shark" part of his nickname was because he got bit by a shark he used to keep in a tank in his house. That alone is enough to convey that this is entertainement and not a "fool or bust" game.
5. Smile.
6. Talk about more than what you are doing. If you focus on what you are doing, they will focus on how you are doing it.
7. Always have them show their card to the whole audience "so everyone can enjoy the magic."
8. Make it more fun to work with you than to work against you.

Also, the easiest cover for when this happens is to say, "that's odd, I don't think there is a [insert card name] in this deck", look at the cards in the deck for the named card and not finding it pull a card out of your wallet and show it to be the selected card. Check out the card to wallet routine in Mark Wilson's book for the easiest way to do this.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Again, they thought the point of the experience was to catch you out and make you look silly. I'd be willing to bet they'd seen a typical magic show recently. Also, it's entirely possible the guy was just trying to show off for the girl and be an alpha male type.

The problem could still be handled on your end, though.

what happened was this girl and her boyfriend walked up to my table and asked if they could see some magic. I said certainly, and launched immediately into my red and blue routine for them,

Engage them, then perform magic with them. You went straight into magic, which means all the knew about the situation is the preconceived notions they walked up with. You didn't do anything to change those notions before performing, so you didn't take over the dynamic and let them know that 1) you're in charge, 2) they will enjoy themselves, and 3) this is going to be unlike anything they've seen before.

I'm not saying that audiences like this are always the performer's fault, but there are not many people out there that are just complete jerks for no reason. There's almost always a reason. If you build the performance scenario properly, you circumvent those common issues.

 

[eternalredking]

Again, they thought the point of the experience was to catch you out and make you look silly. I'd be willing to bet they'd seen a typical magic show recently. Also, it's entirely possible the guy was just trying to show off for the girl and be an alpha male type.

The problem could still be handled on your end, though.



Engage them, then perform magic with them. You went straight into magic, which means all the knew about the situation is the preconceived notions they walked up with. You didn't do anything to change those notions before performing, so you didn't take over the dynamic and let them know that 1) you're in charge, 2) they will enjoy themselves, and 3) this is going to be unlike anything they've seen before.

I'm not saying that audiences like this are always the performer's fault, but there are not many people out there that are just complete jerks for no reason. There's almost always a reason. If you build the performance scenario properly, you circumvent those common issues.

Thank you for that. You are absolutely right, and I should have considered that. I will make sure to add a little engagement to what I am doing. I guess I got caught up in running my own show that I forgot the actual show part.

 

[ParkinT]

Don't do magic AT them, do magic WITH them

That is brilliantly stated and the key to being a GREAT magic performer.

 

[Josh Mickelson]

I've said this tons of times on the forums, but the easiest out of all is simply to just use a double backer. Keep it somewhere - in the box, in your wallet, etc. and if you screw up, just run through the deck doing the whole "I don't see it anywhere thing" and cut/cull it to the top. Just do a DL with the double backer and you can hand out their card. It's my favorite out of all, I'll often even perform it on it's own.

 

[ifanoctopuscouldpalm]

Check out the video below, but make sure you listen to the advice at the end of the video as well.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

I find the best way to deal with a heckler is to heckle him. Become the alpha.

I sometimes love getting insulted (to a degree) because I love making up comebacks. Thus, I can insult them back and win over the audience (by making it funny), kind of like a comedian has to.

Other thing to do is pull off a "miracle trick" that requires no major sleights he/she can catch, like a mind reading routine using a peek.

 

[NinoIng]

I think to a point audience management and the posts about not challenging them are the most relevant here but I'm sure it's happened to everyone at some point.

I haven't had a 'performance' as such but I keep an invisible deck for just this emergency - it otherwise doesn't feature in any of my routines.

I'm really curious about the double backed card backup plan though - but can't figure out how that would work? Does anyone mind explaining in PM? I have some DB cards I'd love to get some use out of them...

Also regarding Kollosal Killer the price is right but I'm torn - the reviews are completely contradictory. I've got half saying it works 100% of the time and half saying it doesn't, and you need to capitalise on this time that it doesn't work which the first group say is even better. I'm lost! Is this really the ultimate backup plan and is it worth my $$$?

 

[Lindel]

I've said this tons of times on the forums, but the easiest out of all is simply to just use a double backer. Keep it somewhere - in the box, in your wallet, etc. and if you screw up, just run through the deck doing the whole "I don't see it anywhere thing" and cut/cull it to the top. Just do a DL with the double backer and you can hand out their card. It's my favorite out of all, I'll often even perform it on it's own.

I've also done this a lot as a prediction or a card to impossible location too, and I've also thought about using it as a backup plan. I saw a lot of people mentioning Kolossal Killer, which I haven't looked into much. The mixed reviews turned me off somewhat, but it sounds like those came from people who didn't know what they were doing? For those who have used it, is Kolossal Killer a significant improvement on the method mentioned above?

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Kolossal Killer is a great effect, when treated correctly. It works great as a save your butt thing - but the great thing about it is that once it's set up in your wallet, you can always have it. So someone can walk up to you in the grocery store, name a card, and you can show that you knew they'd do that.

The only reason I don't use it is because I don't like having a wallet that thick in my pocket.

The thing about trying to be "the alpha" when someone starts heckling is that it's often too late. At that point you're enforcing the "you vs. them" mentality. You either need to establish control over the room at the start of your show, or you need to understand that you may be challenged.

Here's my strategy for when someone gets uppity: Roll what they say into the show as if you'd planned for it all along, without giving them power. As in, acknowledge what they're saying, and respond in such a way that shows them respect but also shows them that you're in charge here. Alternatively, use them as a rolling source of comedy. A few weeks ago I had a show where I pulled a young girl, around 9 or so, up as a volunteer. This girl was sassy. She was not impressed by me, had no desire to believe anything I said. So I took everything she threw at me, and I addressed it to the audience. I made a point of saying how she was smart, sassy, and at one point offered her a job, (Her response, "Ha! You can't fool me.") The audience loved it, she felt validated, and the show was successful (Despite the fact that I actually messed up a routine). Basically I took a very tough volunteer, and I turned the perception of the audience into, "Man. Kids, right? Look at this girl, she is giving me nothing! You've dealt with this, right?" So they were on my side, and she had a good time. Afterwards she literally came up to me and said, "Just so you know, I consider this a fail on your part. Also, thank you."

If I had tried to shut her down, the audience would have sensed it. Never punch down. You can always be the bigger person and make sure your audience is entertained, even if you have to go wildly off script.

As much as I like Ramsay as a person, his style of magic is a prime example of what I have come to dislike about magicians. The confrontational style, the denial of real magic, the "it's all a trick so let's be trivial about this" mentality. I believe all styles of performance are valid, but his leaves me cold.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

As much as I like Ramsay as a person, his style of magic is a prime example of what I have come to dislike about magicians. The confrontational style, the denial of real magic, the "it's all a trick so let's be trivial about this" mentality. I believe all styles of performance are valid, but his leaves me cold.

Wait, so you're saying it is wrong to present your magic tricks as actual tricks? Are you saying that magic should be presented as "actual magic" by all magicians? I have to disagree there.

Or are you just saying you don't really like Ramsay's style specifically? Because I kind of have to agree there, its very DB-esque, which is a problem since DB is one of like 3 people who can pull off that persona. Chris is not one of them. Love him as a person, his effects are cool, but his performance is meh.

 

[eternalredking]

Kolossal Killer is a great effect, when treated correctly. It works great as a save your butt thing - but the great thing about it is that once it's set up in your wallet, you can always have it. So someone can walk up to you in the grocery store, name a card, and you can show that you knew they'd do that.

The only reason I don't use it is because I don't like having a wallet that thick in my pocket.

The thing about trying to be "the alpha" when someone starts heckling is that it's often too late. At that point you're enforcing the "you vs. them" mentality. You either need to establish control over the room at the start of your show, or you need to understand that you may be challenged.

Here's my strategy for when someone gets uppity: Roll what they say into the show as if you'd planned for it all along, without giving them power. As in, acknowledge what they're saying, and respond in such a way that shows them respect but also shows them that you're in charge here. Alternatively, use them as a rolling source of comedy. A few weeks ago I had a show where I pulled a young girl, around 9 or so, up as a volunteer. This girl was sassy. She was not impressed by me, had no desire to believe anything I said. So I took everything she threw at me, and I addressed it to the audience. I made a point of saying how she was smart, sassy, and at one point offered her a job, (Her response, "Ha! You can't fool me.") The audience loved it, she felt validated, and the show was successful (Despite the fact that I actually messed up a routine). Basically I took a very tough volunteer, and I turned the perception of the audience into, "Man. Kids, right? Look at this girl, she is giving me nothing! You've dealt with this, right?" So they were on my side, and she had a good time. Afterwards she literally came up to me and said, "Just so you know, I consider this a fail on your part. Also, thank you."

If I had tried to shut her down, the audience would have sensed it. Never punch down. You can always be the bigger person and make sure your audience is entertained, even if you have to go wildly off script.

As much as I like Ramsay as a person, his style of magic is a prime example of what I have come to dislike about magicians. The confrontational style, the denial of real magic, the "it's all a trick so let's be trivial about this" mentality. I believe all styles of performance are valid, but his leaves me cold.

So, I've developed quite a bit since posting this, and I can say that I really do not like Kolossal Killer, as an effect. I can see what you are saying about it being an out, but I honestly prefer to just have a card to wallet be my out. It's contained, impossible, and absolutely floors spectators, especially if it is signed. Other than that, I just keep an invisible deck and a double backer with me, just in case I make an actual mistake.
On the other subject of Ramsay, I think his style can work well, it just rings better with certain people. I disagree with you though, that we need to always present magic as 'real magic'. I feel that there are certain effects that, if treated like that, insult the spectators intelligence, and just make a problem. It's part of the reason you don't consider using the more basic tricks with older audiences, such as a ball and vase. It's because they are intelligent, and you expect them to remain skeptical to a degree. Almost everyone will do that, in many ways because of the less than great experience they usually have with magicians, usually in the form of an uncle who knew a passable card trick, but messed it up half the time, and those are the lucky ones. Most people these days have no experience with magicians whatsoever. I'd say that, out of every 10 people I ask, 7 of them will admit that I'm the first magician they have seen.
In summary, I've taken to deep heart what this board said, to do magic with spectators, not at them, and I understand and respect the relationship I have with my spectators, and the responsibility I have to ensure their entertainment.

 

[obrienmagic]

Hope this helps! This is all from personal experience! different ways to deal with different kinds of hecklers!

 

[obrienmagic]

Also with experience you will learn to call people out on their BS. I would have looked at the rest of the crowd and said "Was it the wrong card card?" then looked back and said "Don't lie... lol" she prolly would have said "Fine......" and if she didn't i would know that the rest of the crowd still knew i did the trick right... it is all audience management my friend.

 

[ChrisJGJ]

Wait, so you're saying it is wrong to present your magic tricks as actual tricks? Are you saying that magic should be presented as "actual magic" by all magicians? I have to disagree there.

Or are you just saying you don't really like Ramsay's style specifically? Because I kind of have to agree there, its very DB-esque, which is a problem since DB is one of like 3 people who can pull off that persona. Chris is not one of them. Love him as a person, his effects are cool, but his performance is meh.

"It doesn't have to be one or the other" -ChristopherT.
He is saying leave it up to the spectator to decide what they think it is.

Personally I think either way it's fine. If they think it is a trick and they admire your dexterity, dedication to your craft, and you leave them with a puzzle they want to work out great. If they are awe struck that magic could potentially exist, fine. I just want to entertain. If you want to do one or the other then you should practice and do all you can to achieve that. You shouldn't need to tell them it's magic. You should be able to make it look and feel like it is through your delivery. You shouldn't need to tell them it's a trick because 9 out of 10 people will think that anyway xD.

 

[Josh Mickelson]

Also with experience you will learn to call people out on their BS. I would have looked at the rest of the crowd and said "Was it the wrong card card?" then looked back and said "Don't lie... lol" she prolly would have said "Fine......" and if she didn't i would know that the rest of the crowd still knew i did the trick right... it is all audience management my friend.

Is it bad that I've set up a situation for this to intentionally happen? Somebody was heckling me and I really couldn't deal with it anymore - so I just had someone pick a card and top changed it before I showed him. Maybe a little bit mean... but it got him to stop talking when the rest of the group kinda turned against him.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Is it bad that I've set up a situation for this to intentionally happen? Somebody was heckling me and I really couldn't deal with it anymore - so I just had someone pick a card and top changed it before I showed him. Maybe a little bit mean... but it got him to stop talking when the rest of the group kinda turned against him.

I mean, I have tricks set up specifically to deal with hecklers. So not really mean - he was already heckling you.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

When did I say everyone needs to perform as if it's real? In fact, I said:

I believe all styles of performance are valid, but his leaves me cold.

I don't think everyone should perform the same way - I just have little to no interest in folks who are insisting that they have to tell me it's a trick. That's really arrogant, when you think about it. "What I'm about to do is SO AMAZING that you might think it's real. Well, it's just a trick, you idiot. Now watch!"

I'm just not into that cynicism. I respect my audience enough to understand that they are intelligent enough to make their own decisions about what they are seeing.

People "heckle" because they think that's what they should do, or it's more satisfying than watching the show. For most magicians it's because they set themselves up as being superior to the audience. The problem is that it's a false sense of superiority and if the crowd doesn't get into the show they'll tear the performer down.

If the show is engaging and makes the audience feel good about themselves, they'll never heckle. If someone does start being a problem, the audience will shut them up.

Most people who go on stage and try to "be the alpha" just end up sounding like a jerk and setting up an adversarial relationship with the audience. "I'm going to fool you and you're going to like it!" Most magicians I have seen can't pull that off. Which is part of why magicians have such a bad reputation.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

@ChristopherT
I totally misinterpreted what you meant. I thought you meant "I respect all styles, but I do not like it when people perform like the trick isn't real magic, or deny real magic existing."

My bad.

 

[RealityOne]

Check out the video below, but make sure you listen to the advice at the end of the video as well.

Although there is some decent advice in that video, the whole approach is wrong. You don't engage hecklers because that just rewards them for being a jerk. Plus, even if you one up them, you come across like a jerk.

I find the best way to deal with a heckler is to heckle him. Become the alpha.

See above. Heckling a heckler lets them win because it allows them to control YOUR show.

haven't had a 'performance' as such but I keep an invisible deck for just this emergency - it otherwise doesn't feature in any of my routines.

That is a great out. Also, if they name a card that isnt the one you forced, you can say, "that's strange" and look through the deck face up and cull it to the top or bottom. Then, in the process of handing the deck to the spectator do a top palm or gambler's cop. Ask them to find the named card in the deck.... its not there. You then have a bunch of options -- you can add the card back reversed in the deck, put it on top of the deck, put it on the bottom of the deck, etc. From there you can do an any card at any number (dealing seconds or just bottom dealing the last card). You can put their card under a glass on the table as they look throught the deck or you can simply reach into a pocket and produce their card.

I'm really curious about the double backed card backup plan though - but can't figure out how that would work? Does anyone mind explaining in PM? I have some DB cards I'd love to get some use out of them...?

Control named card to top, take DB card out of pocket, put DB card on top of deck, do a DL, hand out top card and then smile.

The thing about trying to be "the alpha" when someone starts heckling is that it's often too late. At that point you're enforcing the "you vs. them" mentality. You either need to establish control over the room at the start of your show, or you need to understand that you may be challenged.

Quoted because everyone needs to read this again and again and again.

As much as I like Ramsay as a person, his style of magic is a prime example of what I have come to dislike about magicians. The confrontational style, the denial of real magic, the "it's all a trick so let's be trivial about this" mentality. I believe all styles of performance are valid, but his leaves me cold.

Agreed.

Wait, so you're saying it is wrong to present your magic tricks as actual tricks? Are you saying that magic should be presented as "actual magic" by all magicians? I have to disagree there.

Think of the difference between asking someone, "do you want to see a magic trick?" or "do you want to see something absolutely incomprehensible?" I do think we should present our magic as being real... in the theatrical sense of the word. Does a performer in a play stop and tell the audience that he really isn't a 16th century nobleman and that the sword he is using isn't sharp and the blood you will see isn't real? Do Marvel movies have the hero tell the audience that he really can't do what you are about to see and it is all a CGI "trick"? I like the word Christoper uses "trivializes." Saying that something is just a trick trivializes the magic. When you get down to it, we are presenting a real illusion. That said, our character has to give the magic context. The context is what differenciates from mere "look at these tricks."

Does everyone HAVE to present magic this way. Of course not. But I think that doing more than just tricks makes the magic better.

I disagree with you though, that we need to always present magic as 'real magic'. I feel that there are certain effects that, if treated like that, insult the spectators intelligence, and just make a problem. It's part of the reason you don't consider using the more basic tricks with older audiences, such as a ball and vase. It's because they are intelligent, and you expect them to remain skeptical to a degree.

I've done ball and vase for older audiences -- they were amazed more so because they thought they knew how it worked and there was no way that what I was doing was consistent with their understanding.

I don't think that Christoper is saying that you have to present an ambitious card trick as if the card actually moves through the deck on your command. Rather, he is saying not to present it as a trick or as having fast hands or as you have to pay attention to what I'm doing or I'm going to fool you. That said, there are a lot of magic effects that can't stand up with a presentation that is more than "I can fool you." Within a performance, those effects may have a place, but your performance should consist entirely of those types of effects.

As to insulting intelligence, I think that telling them it is a trick actually is more insulting. People know that magic is an illusion. I invite my spectators to come into my imagination and to enjoy that illusion. It isn't enjoyable if they try to figure it out.

I
In summary, I've taken to deep heart what this board said, to do magic with spectators, not at them, and I understand and respect the relationship I have with my spectators, and the responsibility I have to ensure their entertainment.

I'm glad that you are thinking about this. What things specifically are you changing in your performance?