Does Coin Magic...
- Thread starter Morgan B
- Start date
Hey Monopoly - it is not just that it is technically hard, because I don't deny that it takes more effort to be good at coins, than good at other forms of magic - yet, even if it were equal - there are inherent issues with coin presentations and methods that make it less enjoyable and convincing.
Nobody has taken me up on the challenge - I would love someone to post a video or talk about how they have made coin magic both convincing and enjoyable - without sounding like a flake.
Nobody has taken me up on the challenge - I would love someone to post a video or talk about how they have made coin magic both convincing and enjoyable - without sounding like a flake.
Maybe its YOU that has the problem. Because I know a ton of guys who can do coin magic and make it look it look like real magic and enjoyable.
Or maybe Randy...maybe you THINK you know guys that do coin magic well, because you see it as a magician, and have lost what it is like to be the audience and what their processing is when they see magic...perhaps, this is SO far over your heard in conceptual and critical thinking that you have nothing to offer but slanderous remarks that show...Glaringly, I might add, that you have NO talent when it comes to progressing your magic to a level beyond what you mimic from videos.
Keep up the good work Randy the Photocopy. Please don't talk now...the adults are having a serious conversation.
Keep up the good work Randy the Photocopy. Please don't talk now...the adults are having a serious conversation.
First of all. You have no right to tell me if I have talent or not. Due to not seeing me perform. 2nd of all. It seems YOU are the one who needs to not talk because you have developed the maturity of a 12 year old by trying to pull a steerpike and arguing with people on a message board.
Another thing is I'd like to see you tell that to David Roth or any of the other top guys that perform coin magic that it sucks. It doesn't suck. You just THINK it sucks because YOU are seeing it from a magician's perspective and not a lay persons perspective. Which is common place for people who think they know what they are talking about.
Now lets get back to the subject at hand. Does coin magic suck? No. If it sucked, it wouldn't be used by so many of the top guys who constantly perform for lay people professionally. Sure it may not look super magical, but unless you are Merlin. It shouldn't matter. You are an entertainer, it is your job to entertain people. A lot of magicians don't know what entertaining is. This has been talked about by Darwin Ortiz when he mentioned a guy talking about he thought Al Koran was boring, when he clearly isn't.
If Coin magic sucked then why do such things as Silver Dream and any other Misers Dream routine get such good reactions from people. if they didn't enjoy seeing that or seeing you pluck coins from the air, they would just leave. Hell, Kozmo uses a One Coin Routine to get peoples attention and get them hooked when he is busking on the street. I guess it sucks so much, that they decide to tip him well and stick around for the show.
I perform many different types of magic, but coin magic is the most requested from my audiences. Maybe not because it's the most magical... maybe it's because it's just more entertaining and more fun than lame card tricks, fake mentalism, etc.
Does it have flaws? Sure it does.
So does ALL magic.
The idea of trying to present "plausible, real magic" is a major problem with the art of magic. As 90% of the world does not believe in it.
So deal with it.
Scott.
Does it have flaws? Sure it does.
So does ALL magic.
The idea of trying to present "plausible, real magic" is a major problem with the art of magic. As 90% of the world does not believe in it.
So deal with it.
Scott.
Randy - you have proven my point - the topic isn't "if coin magic sucked" - at least read and comprehend my first post. You wonder why it is so frustrating...for so long...to have to say..."I don't think coin magic sucks, but it has inherent issues that aren't being dealt with" - and even Roth, Hooser, Roberts...whoever you want, will agree. So, the issue isn't if coins suck, because if you read my first friggin sentence you will see I don't think that...the issue is threefold, but I will let you read up on that.
Actually Randy, it is funny you get so upset, as I just return the favour from your post that said I was the one with the issue...I am the reason coin magic has these problems...it couldn't be the meduim??!! Then I turn it on you, and I am the child? Not so fun to be considered the issue is it? So, how about thinking before you post something that doesn't add to the point - as I am still awaiting ANYONE to back up what they say. So read my first post - then offer an effect that convers those bases...so far, just opinions like yours..."COIN MAGIC DOESN'T SUCK - YOU SUCK" - well thanks for the brilliant imput - where would magic be without you?
Doing a coin piece on stage - like doing card manip - is very different. Doing it on the street in front of many...again, you have different standards of deception. When people see Copperfield float in a theatre, they suspend their disbelief...when people see someone float a bill up close - they will ask, "where is the thread" - different venues allow for different effects.
So - to assume someone got tipped because of a coin effect...very blanket thinking - as it was the personality that made them stay...then noise - if that was all he did - they may not of tipped.
Two questions - why would you tip a guy that could produce money...he doesn't need it?!! Also, why would you ever stop - Miser's Dream never really comes across as "real" magic.
Here is the thing Randy - I have done actual studies on human reactions and interviewed at the University level, asking people about what they perceived and how it was processed. You would be surprised with what people walk away with, when the show is over.
Maybe you are happy fooling people while they watch you, then when the logical mind sets it and the reaction is done - they go...Oh, yeah - "method" because they had no other way out (Too perfect theory, right?). However, I want to leave an entertaining and enjoyable experience of magic...even after I leave - I want that to last with them forever.
Anyhow Randy - if you are prepared to actually talk - rather than accusing ME of being the issue - we can discuss - however, you need to take a moment to educate on what the issues are. If you think I have spent 19 pages of my time on this thread (and way more in real life) to just sasy "coin magic sucks" and you ACTUALLY think that I THINK it sucks - then you are more ingnorant than I could ever imagine.
By the way - I am flattered you compared me to Steerpike - as he is one of the few on this site that knows what creating a magic experience is - and although we differ in how we deliver it...I think our audiences have thanked us.
I am often surprised with the amount of ignorance people share on the internet, and how humbled they become when we spend time face to face. Randy - I am no slouch in magic...and have studied it HARD for a long time, open your mind...you may learn something and then be able to help.
In short - if you are going to write...and are upset that I "attacked you", then please read your post and think about your impact....then write something useful - this is all I ask.
Actually Randy, it is funny you get so upset, as I just return the favour from your post that said I was the one with the issue...I am the reason coin magic has these problems...it couldn't be the meduim??!! Then I turn it on you, and I am the child? Not so fun to be considered the issue is it? So, how about thinking before you post something that doesn't add to the point - as I am still awaiting ANYONE to back up what they say. So read my first post - then offer an effect that convers those bases...so far, just opinions like yours..."COIN MAGIC DOESN'T SUCK - YOU SUCK" - well thanks for the brilliant imput - where would magic be without you?
Doing a coin piece on stage - like doing card manip - is very different. Doing it on the street in front of many...again, you have different standards of deception. When people see Copperfield float in a theatre, they suspend their disbelief...when people see someone float a bill up close - they will ask, "where is the thread" - different venues allow for different effects.
So - to assume someone got tipped because of a coin effect...very blanket thinking - as it was the personality that made them stay...then noise - if that was all he did - they may not of tipped.
Two questions - why would you tip a guy that could produce money...he doesn't need it?!! Also, why would you ever stop - Miser's Dream never really comes across as "real" magic.
Here is the thing Randy - I have done actual studies on human reactions and interviewed at the University level, asking people about what they perceived and how it was processed. You would be surprised with what people walk away with, when the show is over.
Maybe you are happy fooling people while they watch you, then when the logical mind sets it and the reaction is done - they go...Oh, yeah - "method" because they had no other way out (Too perfect theory, right?). However, I want to leave an entertaining and enjoyable experience of magic...even after I leave - I want that to last with them forever.
Anyhow Randy - if you are prepared to actually talk - rather than accusing ME of being the issue - we can discuss - however, you need to take a moment to educate on what the issues are. If you think I have spent 19 pages of my time on this thread (and way more in real life) to just sasy "coin magic sucks" and you ACTUALLY think that I THINK it sucks - then you are more ingnorant than I could ever imagine.
By the way - I am flattered you compared me to Steerpike - as he is one of the few on this site that knows what creating a magic experience is - and although we differ in how we deliver it...I think our audiences have thanked us.
I am often surprised with the amount of ignorance people share on the internet, and how humbled they become when we spend time face to face. Randy - I am no slouch in magic...and have studied it HARD for a long time, open your mind...you may learn something and then be able to help.
In short - if you are going to write...and are upset that I "attacked you", then please read your post and think about your impact....then write something useful - this is all I ask.
I think you should ask Kozmo that question. He pretty much opens his busking show with a One Coin routine, yet he is able to make a pretty damn good living off busking.
The thing is that magic is entertainment PERIOD. It shouldn't matter if they think you actually did REAL magic or not. Do you go the movies and get bummed out when you realize that they used SFX or that the actors didn't really die in the explosion? No, you are able to suspend your disbeleif. People do that when they see any kind of decent magic. Weather it is coins, cards, sponges, bill switches or a vanishing cars. They know in the back of their minds that you can't REALLY do all that stuff. Otherwise you wouldn't be making a living as an entertainer. You'd be robbing banks and getting away with it.
Scott - If your card magic, and other magic is lame...then no wonder they ask you to do coins - your audience just wants to see something you don't suck at. However, I don't suck at cards or mentalism...I also don't suck at coins.
I don't present magic like it is "real", however, I don't remind people it isn't either - just like I don't remind people in a movie theatre that the MOVIE is not real.
How can you make your magic stronger without claming it is real?
Leaving them no outs - no way to say...that was awesome...then when you leave, they talk...trust me, they SHOULD and WILL talk about you if you are worth anything. They will try to figure it out - if they can't - they trap themselves again and again...if they do...you are dismissed - forgotten about.
Sure, some won't try to figure it out - they were fooled by your tricks, and they don't want to worry about it. However, I also see this as an issue in making your art meaningful and memorable. If your "LITTLE TRICKS" are a diversion - then who cares.
If people don't have outs, the magic will be a story they tell their children, and their children's children. It is a memory, attached to a (hopefully) meaningful discussion with them. For example, a saw a guy use Roth's hanging coins to illustrate a story of how he grew up on a farm and his parents saved for him and his brothers. One blew their money on women (coin vanishes) another on wine (second coin gone)...last coin - the last brother invested his and became a rich man (all coins return). This story was about this guys life, and the coins illustrated it....TA DA IDIOTS - we have meaningful and strong magic...AND THIS IS MORE THAN ANYONE HAS SHARED ON THIS SITE.
Few times does it go hand in hand - so prove me wrong Scott - What wonderful pieces of coin magic are people asking to see over your other stuff? Share with us OH GREAT coin magician? I simply asked for you to discuss something that offers more than just a cheap trick - but has the pieces to it that a STRONG effect should. Connects, fools, offers no outs...still, nothing from the peanut gallery.
Tell you what Scott - so sure of yourself. Let's put money where our mouths are - I will give this challenge to anyone:
Put a set of 3 coin effects together...THE STRONGEST YOU GOT - I will do the same with my magic. We will meet up and perform for randoms - then ask them to vote.
You put up 1000 dollars, and so will I - whoever the audiences vote for - gets to keep the money.
Do you really want to risk a grand on 3 coin effects? If you don't - then you realize that coin magic, although a GREAT part of magic - has weaknesses...enought you wouldn't bet on it.
LASTLY SCOTT - you said yourself - coin magic has weaknesses, like all magic. However, these weaknesses are discussed...some overcome, some not - but nobody has ever told me to "get over it" when trying to find a better way to control a card...or make my DL look more natural.
SO I WILL SAY ONE LAST TIME - Get your ego out of the way, open your mind to do some thinking...or are you taking a temper tantrum because you can't...so you are taking your coins and going home!?
Honestly, I wonder how much of a loss that would be to this thread?
I don't present magic like it is "real", however, I don't remind people it isn't either - just like I don't remind people in a movie theatre that the MOVIE is not real.
How can you make your magic stronger without claming it is real?
Leaving them no outs - no way to say...that was awesome...then when you leave, they talk...trust me, they SHOULD and WILL talk about you if you are worth anything. They will try to figure it out - if they can't - they trap themselves again and again...if they do...you are dismissed - forgotten about.
Sure, some won't try to figure it out - they were fooled by your tricks, and they don't want to worry about it. However, I also see this as an issue in making your art meaningful and memorable. If your "LITTLE TRICKS" are a diversion - then who cares.
If people don't have outs, the magic will be a story they tell their children, and their children's children. It is a memory, attached to a (hopefully) meaningful discussion with them. For example, a saw a guy use Roth's hanging coins to illustrate a story of how he grew up on a farm and his parents saved for him and his brothers. One blew their money on women (coin vanishes) another on wine (second coin gone)...last coin - the last brother invested his and became a rich man (all coins return). This story was about this guys life, and the coins illustrated it....TA DA IDIOTS - we have meaningful and strong magic...AND THIS IS MORE THAN ANYONE HAS SHARED ON THIS SITE.
Few times does it go hand in hand - so prove me wrong Scott - What wonderful pieces of coin magic are people asking to see over your other stuff? Share with us OH GREAT coin magician? I simply asked for you to discuss something that offers more than just a cheap trick - but has the pieces to it that a STRONG effect should. Connects, fools, offers no outs...still, nothing from the peanut gallery.
Tell you what Scott - so sure of yourself. Let's put money where our mouths are - I will give this challenge to anyone:
Put a set of 3 coin effects together...THE STRONGEST YOU GOT - I will do the same with my magic. We will meet up and perform for randoms - then ask them to vote.
You put up 1000 dollars, and so will I - whoever the audiences vote for - gets to keep the money.
Do you really want to risk a grand on 3 coin effects? If you don't - then you realize that coin magic, although a GREAT part of magic - has weaknesses...enought you wouldn't bet on it.
LASTLY SCOTT - you said yourself - coin magic has weaknesses, like all magic. However, these weaknesses are discussed...some overcome, some not - but nobody has ever told me to "get over it" when trying to find a better way to control a card...or make my DL look more natural.
SO I WILL SAY ONE LAST TIME - Get your ego out of the way, open your mind to do some thinking...or are you taking a temper tantrum because you can't...so you are taking your coins and going home!?
Honestly, I wonder how much of a loss that would be to this thread?
Randy - we are obviously not on the same page. You don't have the same standards with your magic, that I do. Sorry if you don't hold yourself to the same standards that I have developed - but I have done VERY well for myself over my ten year career - paying my way through college, university and making a great living doing ONLY close up - not many can say that...however, this isn't a pissing contest...it is a think tank - nobody wants to piss in the pool.
Randy, give me a break - so you are watching a movie - and it's good, you are on the edge of your seat...then...a technical error - or - you see the boom in a shot - or - someone tells you what happens next? How does this effect your moment of escape - disappointment?? Yep.
I know movies aren't real, but we are allowing ourselves to pretend what is happening on the screen is...for a few hours...we laugh, cry, get scared or nervous - WHY is emotion involved, even though I know it is fake
From the sounds of things Randy - you have MUCH to learn about how to make your magic meaningful and more memorable.
Ammar said it well in the book Switch - I know that people don't really believe I am changing the bill but (when they have no solution) having them question their own senses, I consider to be a victory.
Truthfully, if people have nowhere to run in thoughts, they will surrender to the moment - and you are doing your job - afterall - you call yourself a magician - not a trickster or a puzzler.
You are an actor - you state you are a magician - your job is to give the appearance of magic. If I watch something, and can logicallyi follow it once I retrace what happened, hind sight if you will, then you have failed to create the illusion of magic - you only offered a puzzle, that was short lived.
Wow, I feel like I am having to educate every guy that comes in this thread - it does get a bit frustrating. How about for one hour, you try to take what I say as fact. My experience trumps many, and my thoughts are legitamite. I have logically backed up what I said, you have offered nothing but opinion and circular thought.
How about getting on my page, seeing what I see for a moment - as I have had YOUR conversation before when I was a few years in....time to progress.
Randy, give me a break - so you are watching a movie - and it's good, you are on the edge of your seat...then...a technical error - or - you see the boom in a shot - or - someone tells you what happens next? How does this effect your moment of escape - disappointment?? Yep.
I know movies aren't real, but we are allowing ourselves to pretend what is happening on the screen is...for a few hours...we laugh, cry, get scared or nervous - WHY is emotion involved, even though I know it is fake
From the sounds of things Randy - you have MUCH to learn about how to make your magic meaningful and more memorable.
Ammar said it well in the book Switch - I know that people don't really believe I am changing the bill but (when they have no solution) having them question their own senses, I consider to be a victory.
Truthfully, if people have nowhere to run in thoughts, they will surrender to the moment - and you are doing your job - afterall - you call yourself a magician - not a trickster or a puzzler.
You are an actor - you state you are a magician - your job is to give the appearance of magic. If I watch something, and can logicallyi follow it once I retrace what happened, hind sight if you will, then you have failed to create the illusion of magic - you only offered a puzzle, that was short lived.
Wow, I feel like I am having to educate every guy that comes in this thread - it does get a bit frustrating. How about for one hour, you try to take what I say as fact. My experience trumps many, and my thoughts are legitamite. I have logically backed up what I said, you have offered nothing but opinion and circular thought.
How about getting on my page, seeing what I see for a moment - as I have had YOUR conversation before when I was a few years in....time to progress.
Yeah I see what you mean but.. Not everybody needs to make everything they do look like pure magic. Bill Malone's stuff doesn't look like pure magic. People remember HIM and remember what he did. He is also to ENTERTAIN them. Gregory Wilson does the same. David Williamson and ton of others do as well. Yes them going away thinking that you did REAL magic would be nice in a perfect world. This isn't a perfect world. It's better to have people remember YOU. How funny, nice, charming, etc etc you were. The magic is there to add to that. Now if you want to make people think you do REAL magic. I suggest you NEVER break character EVER. Go to the store and do bill switches, coin magic, mind reading whatever. Then do it at the bank, the beach etc. Hey, it worked for Max Malini.
Hmm, okay Randy - I can see how you would think that Bill's stuff is not "magical", because his personality is so memorable - but he is a solid card worker and chooses to be the guy that shows great skill with cards - Notice though - he does NO coin work.
Gregory Wilson and I worked at magic camp together - he is a nice guy - but it is not JUST his personality - and between you me and whoever reads this. I don't do much of Greg's stuff, because it doesn't meet these standards - but I once did. I was getting reactions, so I thought I had done my job...things like G-Force were killing for me...until I realized it was showcasing a force....then I removed it and replaced it with something more deceptive and equally as entertaining.
Haha, when I spent time with David Williamson, I had spend months working on Money Talks - I really liked the idea of the wand making the sound to show where the coin was "invisibly sitting" - until I spoke with David and asked about the effect. He said, "Oh, I haven't done it in years" - I asked, "Why not" - he said, "When you are working for people, it just didn't have the impact I wanted...it wasn't deceptive"..."People will ask themselves where the coin is, and they know its not gone...so where could it be"? No word of a lie Randy - he said, "How about behind that big F-in meaty hook of a hand". As usual, he was right - coin magic had issues that most weren't willing to face.
I don't agree that it is ONE or the OTHER - you can do STRONG and MEMORABLE magic that isn't "real" but "A real experience" for people, or a real memory. Your personality is a BONUS on top of it - if you aren't fooling them, and just enteratining them...well, be a comedian - but to be a magician - like Jami Ian Swiss says - you must FOOL the audience. Just like a piano player has to hit the right notes, even if he is singing - his voice is the bonus...but if he plays piano, and bills himself as that - then this is what he does.
For me - I don't have to worry about character - I am one...as I am myself - positive, intelligent, semi-good looking...I find this makes it easy for people to know who you are - as characters are for stage - my "character" is a connection into my reality and theirs. I know "be yourself" is cliche advice - but for a someone well known in town, I would rather be me...so I can always be me. Luckily, my every day person likes to have fun, joke, challenge people to think and get involved - so it fits - it doesn't for all - but it beats having to slick my hair back and wear all black.
Gregory Wilson and I worked at magic camp together - he is a nice guy - but it is not JUST his personality - and between you me and whoever reads this. I don't do much of Greg's stuff, because it doesn't meet these standards - but I once did. I was getting reactions, so I thought I had done my job...things like G-Force were killing for me...until I realized it was showcasing a force....then I removed it and replaced it with something more deceptive and equally as entertaining.
Haha, when I spent time with David Williamson, I had spend months working on Money Talks - I really liked the idea of the wand making the sound to show where the coin was "invisibly sitting" - until I spoke with David and asked about the effect. He said, "Oh, I haven't done it in years" - I asked, "Why not" - he said, "When you are working for people, it just didn't have the impact I wanted...it wasn't deceptive"..."People will ask themselves where the coin is, and they know its not gone...so where could it be"? No word of a lie Randy - he said, "How about behind that big F-in meaty hook of a hand". As usual, he was right - coin magic had issues that most weren't willing to face.
I don't agree that it is ONE or the OTHER - you can do STRONG and MEMORABLE magic that isn't "real" but "A real experience" for people, or a real memory. Your personality is a BONUS on top of it - if you aren't fooling them, and just enteratining them...well, be a comedian - but to be a magician - like Jami Ian Swiss says - you must FOOL the audience. Just like a piano player has to hit the right notes, even if he is singing - his voice is the bonus...but if he plays piano, and bills himself as that - then this is what he does.
For me - I don't have to worry about character - I am one...as I am myself - positive, intelligent, semi-good looking...I find this makes it easy for people to know who you are - as characters are for stage - my "character" is a connection into my reality and theirs. I know "be yourself" is cliche advice - but for a someone well known in town, I would rather be me...so I can always be me. Luckily, my every day person likes to have fun, joke, challenge people to think and get involved - so it fits - it doesn't for all - but it beats having to slick my hair back and wear all black.
Actually Bill does doe coin work. He teaches a coins across routine on one of his DVD's.
I think tho that is different and obviously for a magician, we KNOW how everything is done. Obviously if you try to present something as a complete vanish they won't go "wow!". But if you do something as simple as a French Drop then have the coin appear under your watch or in your pocket or whatever. It takes something that every bodies uncle has shown them and turned it upside down. Then it becomes magic. I'm sure a lot of guys now days don't do the same things they did many years ago.
Also I think the G-Force works well due to the fact that it fits his personality.
I don't really agree that we should FOOL them. I think we should entertain them and use our magic to do that. It is kind of hard for Bill to make his stuff look like real magic because he was taught by a Card shark and is a comedy magician. This is also why guys like Darwin Ortiz can't make it look like they are average Joe who does magic. Because everybody knows that Darwin Ortiz is a huge card shark and that's just the way he is.
Tho I think the BEST way to make what you do magical is simple. It's also something Vernon said. Your magic has to have context and the right timing otherwise you end up looking creepy and dorky no matter how skilled you are. It has to look like its nothing new to you. It has to look like an every day occurrence.
As for as people thinking it's in the other hand, just sleeve it and then dump it in your pocket. Now the coin is REALLY gone from your hands.
Coin magic does have issues, but like Scott said. So does a lot of other things in magic. It's just the way things are always going to be. Yes they can be fixed over time, just that most would rather rely on misdirection or presenting what they do as entertainment. Which is what probably will get most more gigs. Not many people want to hire elitist or snobs.
I think tho that is different and obviously for a magician, we KNOW how everything is done. Obviously if you try to present something as a complete vanish they won't go "wow!". But if you do something as simple as a French Drop then have the coin appear under your watch or in your pocket or whatever. It takes something that every bodies uncle has shown them and turned it upside down. Then it becomes magic. I'm sure a lot of guys now days don't do the same things they did many years ago.
Also I think the G-Force works well due to the fact that it fits his personality.
I don't really agree that we should FOOL them. I think we should entertain them and use our magic to do that. It is kind of hard for Bill to make his stuff look like real magic because he was taught by a Card shark and is a comedy magician. This is also why guys like Darwin Ortiz can't make it look like they are average Joe who does magic. Because everybody knows that Darwin Ortiz is a huge card shark and that's just the way he is.
Tho I think the BEST way to make what you do magical is simple. It's also something Vernon said. Your magic has to have context and the right timing otherwise you end up looking creepy and dorky no matter how skilled you are. It has to look like its nothing new to you. It has to look like an every day occurrence.
As for as people thinking it's in the other hand, just sleeve it and then dump it in your pocket. Now the coin is REALLY gone from your hands.
Coin magic does have issues, but like Scott said. So does a lot of other things in magic. It's just the way things are always going to be. Yes they can be fixed over time, just that most would rather rely on misdirection or presenting what they do as entertainment. Which is what probably will get most more gigs. Not many people want to hire elitist or snobs.
Just point form now:
- G-force has issues in the method being a display of the force...it is in the name. Believe me, there are issues at hand.
- if you don't agree that you need to FOOL first, then what is magic to you? Again, I think you need to re-read. Jami Ian Swiss, and I agree, states to be a magician...your PRIMARY, not your only, but first job is to fool - if you aren't fooling, you aren't doing magic. He actually talks about the guys that say...well, I don't fool em...but I entertain them. Who cares!? You aren't a magician then - THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE - they MUST go hand in hand.
- People think "up your sleeve" - Ortiz talks about how if you leave your sleeves down, you are hurting your magic by 50%, in Strong Magic - actually, I have people comment NIGHTLY that my sleeves are up..."I can't believe it! He doesnt' even have his sleeves down" - that is a sign - experience is listening to your audiences feedback.
Scott's comment was narrow minded...if other things have issues - go deal with it in a thread about other issues - this is a coin thread - we can find solutions together...if narrow minded zombie thinking guys weren't always trying to defend how great coins are by saying:
COINS DON'T SUCK IDIOT - YOU SUCK!
Really? This is the most logical and intelligent contribution I have seen in some time...how about, let's address ONE of the issues - what effects do address these issues, and how? What do these effects lack in other areas of the coin issues - READ MY FIRST POST TO KNOW "THE ISSUES".
I don't consider myself an elitist or snob - but I do consider myself to be better than most because of my standards. You can eat hamburger or steak my friend, but one is a finer meat - and costs more...you can joke around all you want, but personality is not enough...however, why change - it just allows me to charge more than you...because you are focusing on being a clown...as fooling them isn't a priority...I am focused on being what a magician really should be.
DECEPTIVE AND ENTERTAINING
Again - you measure success oddly - I know GREAT magicians...that you look up to - that don't work that often...and others that suck that get TOO much work - (but rarely rehired..hmmm) Anyhow, $$$ isn't the way to judge who the best is...and it is not about who is the best - what the focus should be on is your product...your show.
How can you improve it? This starts at looking at what coin effects you do, and what weaknesses they have...perhaps you can replace them with stronger handlings, or build on them...but this thread is not about that - this thread is about discussing the inherent weaknesses with coin work, and seeing if we can come together and improve on them in any way - find the missing link, so to speak.
No disrespect Randy - but you got lots to learn.
- G-force has issues in the method being a display of the force...it is in the name. Believe me, there are issues at hand.
- if you don't agree that you need to FOOL first, then what is magic to you? Again, I think you need to re-read. Jami Ian Swiss, and I agree, states to be a magician...your PRIMARY, not your only, but first job is to fool - if you aren't fooling, you aren't doing magic. He actually talks about the guys that say...well, I don't fool em...but I entertain them. Who cares!? You aren't a magician then - THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE - they MUST go hand in hand.
- People think "up your sleeve" - Ortiz talks about how if you leave your sleeves down, you are hurting your magic by 50%, in Strong Magic - actually, I have people comment NIGHTLY that my sleeves are up..."I can't believe it! He doesnt' even have his sleeves down" - that is a sign - experience is listening to your audiences feedback.
Scott's comment was narrow minded...if other things have issues - go deal with it in a thread about other issues - this is a coin thread - we can find solutions together...if narrow minded zombie thinking guys weren't always trying to defend how great coins are by saying:
COINS DON'T SUCK IDIOT - YOU SUCK!
Really? This is the most logical and intelligent contribution I have seen in some time...how about, let's address ONE of the issues - what effects do address these issues, and how? What do these effects lack in other areas of the coin issues - READ MY FIRST POST TO KNOW "THE ISSUES".
I don't consider myself an elitist or snob - but I do consider myself to be better than most because of my standards. You can eat hamburger or steak my friend, but one is a finer meat - and costs more...you can joke around all you want, but personality is not enough...however, why change - it just allows me to charge more than you...because you are focusing on being a clown...as fooling them isn't a priority...I am focused on being what a magician really should be.
DECEPTIVE AND ENTERTAINING
Again - you measure success oddly - I know GREAT magicians...that you look up to - that don't work that often...and others that suck that get TOO much work - (but rarely rehired..hmmm) Anyhow, $$$ isn't the way to judge who the best is...and it is not about who is the best - what the focus should be on is your product...your show.
How can you improve it? This starts at looking at what coin effects you do, and what weaknesses they have...perhaps you can replace them with stronger handlings, or build on them...but this thread is not about that - this thread is about discussing the inherent weaknesses with coin work, and seeing if we can come together and improve on them in any way - find the missing link, so to speak.
No disrespect Randy - but you got lots to learn.
Never said you suck, I said maybe YOU are the one with the problems. Big difference in the wording. Tho this is the internet and the phrase "It's not what you say, but how you say it." doesn't work here. (meaning that you are probably the only one who is having a problem.)
There will always be problems with any catagory of magic. And like anything else in magic there always going to be a jillion different ways to accomplish the same effect. Yeah you could tell a story with money. Which would most likely hit people hard during these times. But personally I believe that people don't want to be reminded how bad things are financially.
And yeah there are guys who are excellent magicians but don't get many gigs and guys who are mediocre magicians who get too many. Its like that in literally any form of entertainment. Just turn on MTV.
I know that David Roth has the problem of constantly pointing out that it's a half dollar, which can get annoying when most people know what a half dollar looks like.
There will always be problems with any catagory of magic. And like anything else in magic there always going to be a jillion different ways to accomplish the same effect. Yeah you could tell a story with money. Which would most likely hit people hard during these times. But personally I believe that people don't want to be reminded how bad things are financially.
And yeah there are guys who are excellent magicians but don't get many gigs and guys who are mediocre magicians who get too many. Its like that in literally any form of entertainment. Just turn on MTV.
I know that David Roth has the problem of constantly pointing out that it's a half dollar, which can get annoying when most people know what a half dollar looks like.
Haha - actually, I am a Financial Advisor...and I DO incorporate the concept of the market in magic, people LOVE to laugh over the idea of their money growing and shrinking - as it is nice to laugh and polk fun at something that is taken WAY too seriously....like it is the first time the market is down?!
I didn't say you said I suck...but you haven't read this entire thread, and I don't blame you...it is daunting to say the least, but you might see I am answering the same things over and over...so, no matter how it is said...I don't think people read past the heading.
Anyways Randy - it doesn't seem like you want to discuss the issues from my first post - so I appreciate your time and effort, but this is getting off track. If you want to talk about examples of how I am wrong even...I would love that - but again, when I ask for someone to give me an example of a strong coin routine, it always get side stepped.
Odd for people to come at me so strong and say...COIN MAGIC IS AWESOME - and when asked to give an example...they don't reply.
I didn't say you said I suck...but you haven't read this entire thread, and I don't blame you...it is daunting to say the least, but you might see I am answering the same things over and over...so, no matter how it is said...I don't think people read past the heading.
Anyways Randy - it doesn't seem like you want to discuss the issues from my first post - so I appreciate your time and effort, but this is getting off track. If you want to talk about examples of how I am wrong even...I would love that - but again, when I ask for someone to give me an example of a strong coin routine, it always get side stepped.
Odd for people to come at me so strong and say...COIN MAGIC IS AWESOME - and when asked to give an example...they don't reply.
Shadow Coins. Three fly. Come Fly With Me. Coin One. Any Coin Flurry. Misers Dream. Coin that falls up. Silver Dream. Coins to Cup. Matrix.
Happy Now?
Happy Now?
Three Fly - What do you feel the logical presentation is? How magical is it to get a coin from one hand to the other...when you could do it by placing it there...which is the method? It is like flipping a bill upside down by folding and unfolding...you know that old gag? Is that "magic", people aren't blow away by that. I find all 3 flys look dirty, especially the last coin and the clean up - this is a perfect example where people know the method - when an extra coin is used.
Shadow Coins - looks good...if people are standing right about you...and again, the method of sliding the coins, a bit obvious. Looks good on video...not practical.
Let's try to name some stuff that is practical.
Coin that falls up...I actually like this, but it has no meaning or reason - presentationally - also, people think you just flick it...no matter how slow and well you do it. Their minds go to method....why? What is there to distract them - as it is a stunt.
Coins to cup - Why?
Matric - REALLY WHY? Why do coins need to be hidden under cards...Why are they joining each other?
You actually made a list of illogical magic...either method wise or presentationally.
So Randy - just pick one - and we will dissect it - try to pick one that is strong in either method or presentational options. Not everything has a good presentation attached to it...not all coin effects have strong methods.
Misers Dream...great table hopping effect, hahah CLUNK CLUNK
Shadow Coins - looks good...if people are standing right about you...and again, the method of sliding the coins, a bit obvious. Looks good on video...not practical.
Let's try to name some stuff that is practical.
Coin that falls up...I actually like this, but it has no meaning or reason - presentationally - also, people think you just flick it...no matter how slow and well you do it. Their minds go to method....why? What is there to distract them - as it is a stunt.
Coins to cup - Why?
Matric - REALLY WHY? Why do coins need to be hidden under cards...Why are they joining each other?
You actually made a list of illogical magic...either method wise or presentationally.
So Randy - just pick one - and we will dissect it - try to pick one that is strong in either method or presentational options. Not everything has a good presentation attached to it...not all coin effects have strong methods.
Misers Dream...great table hopping effect, hahah CLUNK CLUNK
Come Fly with Me doesn't use an extra coin and it shouldn't be a problem cleaning up if you do it when people are too busy being amazed. Darwin ortiz also talked about this. Also I think Vernon mentioned that this is the difference between a pro and a amateur. A pro doesn't care are crude the method is, as long as it achieves the effect on people.
The reason you use the cards in Matrix is to make it even more impossible. It's impossible in peoples minds to switch or do anything, when the coins are covered quickly for maybe 2 seconds.
The reason you use the cards in Matrix is to make it even more impossible. It's impossible in peoples minds to switch or do anything, when the coins are covered quickly for maybe 2 seconds.
First let me handle the concept you have of the method - Ortiz doesn't talk about how crude the method is...he says, "if the method is difficult or easy is not the issue - make it easier on the audience to enjoy the effect, and do what it takes to achieve the effect" - however, if you talk to him, he eliminates methods that are weaker and poorly constructed. You appear to be saying all methods are good...when in fact, not all methods are good. I don't let "hard" methods stop me, but I do let poor ones stop me.
Secondly, your concept of why you have cards on top of your coins is very fluffy...to make it mroe difficult??? Yeah, beacuse it is SO hard to hide a coin under a playing card? Seriously, that is like saying vanishing a coin open handed is easier than close handed? Sit down and show a lay person Matrix...ask them to think about it...ask them how they think it was done. THey might not get you had an extra coin - but pry...say, was there any part you thought you knew how it was done? You will be SHOCKED at the answer - good magic leaves no solution behind. Moreoever, saying that the reason you cover the cards is to make it "more impossible" is not a presentation...has no connected meaning...and is really untrue.
Come Fly with Me - please explain what is magical about making a coin go from one hand to the other - also, I did say that gimmicks make magic look "real" - so this effect is disqualified on that merit, but still makes no sense presentationally.
Have you read my first post yet Randy?
I got to crash soon man - as I feel you are just arguing to argue at this point...and are not really trying to discover the issues to make your coin magic better. In short, I sense a waste of time.
Secondly, your concept of why you have cards on top of your coins is very fluffy...to make it mroe difficult??? Yeah, beacuse it is SO hard to hide a coin under a playing card? Seriously, that is like saying vanishing a coin open handed is easier than close handed? Sit down and show a lay person Matrix...ask them to think about it...ask them how they think it was done. THey might not get you had an extra coin - but pry...say, was there any part you thought you knew how it was done? You will be SHOCKED at the answer - good magic leaves no solution behind. Moreoever, saying that the reason you cover the cards is to make it "more impossible" is not a presentation...has no connected meaning...and is really untrue.
Come Fly with Me - please explain what is magical about making a coin go from one hand to the other - also, I did say that gimmicks make magic look "real" - so this effect is disqualified on that merit, but still makes no sense presentationally.
Have you read my first post yet Randy?
I got to crash soon man - as I feel you are just arguing to argue at this point...and are not really trying to discover the issues to make your coin magic better. In short, I sense a waste of time.