Does Coin Magic...

[Sleight_of_Hand]

OK When you guys are talking about coin magic, you forgot one major factor. Coin in bottles and Coin is Cans, and Coins in various other objects (tomatoes lemons etc.). All these are coin magic effects, but make much more sence than pure coin magic. Personally I hate coin magic because I can't handle small objects well ( I'm gonna get attacked for this by the thread starter... ), but CIB and other effects using other inanimate objects make it much more understandable and logical that normal coin magic.

Take for example Factory Sealed, I wonder how many of you guys actually knew how this effect worked by just watching the promo. it was hard hitting and it made perfect sence and it got you emotionally attatched. You were thinking to yourself, " How did this coin get into this bottle while the magician holds onto the bottle with only his fingertips. How did he get it inside an unopened bottle?" This is coin magic that makes people scream. Even if some speculate if the bottle was really unopened, they still wonder how the coin went in with as much exposure of the bottle as possible. This is real coin magic.

Another point I would like to make is that miuch of magic has bad patters that go with good effects, and coin magic unfortunately is very weak when it comes to patters let alone speaking to the audience. Take Triumph for example, it has one of the worst patters possible in my opinion ( I'm talking about the one where the magician goes into a bar and a drunk guy shuffles the cards wrong way up). Why would anyone want to tell someone about their meeting with a drunk guy at a bar? What does this have to do with magic? But when the effect is done, that is when the spectator is amazed. Though he may not understand why you are talking crap , he visually understood what happened. This type of problem occurs in all types of magic. Another example is the thumbtip. What makes the spectator emotionally attatched to the effects performed with it? All it looks like is a guy shoving a silk into his palm. But when it dissapears, this is when it amazes them.

So what I am saying is that effects dont have to be emotionally attatched to the spectator, they have to catch them off guard with something truly amazing. TNR has a really bad patter which makles you think that Chris Kenner is crazy (on offence) , but if you do the restoration only, that itself withthe silence amazes you.




BASICALLY I AM SAYING MAGIC DOESN'T HAVE TO BE LOGICAL!

 

[Morgan B]

"Fear of corrupting the mind of the younger generation is the loftiest of cowardice."

 

[firmz]

How about you show a coin, place it in someones hand, the close their hand into a fist.

one effect - the coin begins to get warm, the coin becomes hot, the coin then becomes so hot they have to drop the coin

another effect - the feel the coin moving in their hand, slowly they feel it actually bending. They open their hand and the coin is bent.

Part of the problem solved? or would you call this mentalism instead? (again that would be a whole different essay)

 

[Chicken]

Yes i would call a coin bending in someone's hand mentalism, but only if you choose to present it as such.

 

[Morgan B]

This post is equal to a retention vanish

 

[Chicken]

Alright Mr. Morgician sir... i will attempt to give these three effects some unboring patter! NOTE: this patter will probably still be extremely boring.

BENT COIN: (in the context of a mentalism show) Manipulating something like thoughts... is something abstract and philosophical, and so is not so explored by the likes of common people. I am going to show you something... impossible... so you will begin to fully appreciate the finneses (spelling?) of the complexitites of the human mind. do you have anything metal? Forks, spoons, braces, glasses... a coin?

From this extremely boring and kind-of sceintific sounding patter, you will either
A) present a logical reason to show somebody the bending of a coin IN ORDER to TEACH them about the mind

B) they will lose interest, walk away, and you won't have to do the coin bend at all.

Yeah, i know this is kind of horrible. i'll write up another one when i think of something good. I gotta go out and bend some coins!

 

[Morgan B]

This brings us to our next challenge - it is not just about making a presentation - but one that is somewhat easy to relate with and not completely absurd.

Example of far fetched presentations - a card changing colour because it blushes....or because someone blows it a kiss.

Example of a better more rational presentation - I marked the card for all to see or I don't use blue cards...only red...then change them out of need.

I hope this provides some direction, as it is not the presentations that lack, but the logical and somewhat believable connected presentations that coins lack.

Good attempt Chicken - very brave and for sure not an easy task. Let's keep trying. I will...but not now, i have to run.

Cheers.

 

[Nate Malini]

If you feel a little uncomfortable telling your onlookers "This coin has strange propertes...." they will feel a little uncomfortable believing it.
I pull the coin out of a black leather coin purse its a old Chinese coin and we live in the united states. I then do a basic one coin routine i could have easily done with a singed borrowed quarter. the leather coin purse and the Chinese coin set the mood before i even say a word a "somethings about to happen "feel.

Is it logical for me to have a old Chinese coin with strange magically properties? how about after I prove it?

 

[Morgan B]

Okito box...a very normal prop

 

[Sleight_of_Hand]

Hey Morgician,

Can you name me one effect which is logical? In any genre.

 

[Morgan B]

I use trash lids as jumbo coins

 

[Chicken]

Sadly... i can't think of one right off the top of my head.



That makes me kind of sad...

 

[Glenn West]

I think this is one of the reasons that T. Nelson Downs had so much success. He performed a routine (Miser's Dream) that had an emotional hook. Who doesn't want to be able to pull money out of air. What's more, people came to watch him BECAUSE they knew that it was possible to catch him. They KNEW it was a game of cat and mouse, and in their minds, they were thinking "Oh, if i catch him, that will be the end of my financial troubles. once i know how its done, i'll be rich."
So Downs magic became a success.

One thing that i think is overrated is emotional hook. the question "what would i do if i could do real magic" is an unneeded one. the spectators KNOW that you are not doing real magic. they may think you are doing something that they can not, and that is impossible, but in the back of their minds, the KNOW, that it is a trick.

Um, wow. If that was truly the case magic would NEVER be viewed as anything more than a brain teaser, like move one stick to make this martini into a square.

 

[Glenn West]

I agree with Morgician, but also disagree, as is often the case.

Actually, it's not so much that I disagree, as it is that I see so much potential for what Morgician is talking about in coins.

The great thing about magic with money is the inherent emotional hook. Vanishing a single coin has a hook because it was an item of value, and it just became nothing. Sure, a half dollar is of a rather insignificant value, but it has more inherent value than a playing card that you make vanish.

As Morgician says though, the key is tapping into this in your coin magic. Most coin effects CAN tap into this, but so often fail to due to the way they are handled.

It is not just about presentation either. You can force any "logic" onto anything with presentation/patter/forced context. But handling the effect just right will do so much for tapping into coin magic's true potential.

Any who, speaking of pointless magic, what's up with pick a card tricks? Seriously though, why the hell is it so important to find a card? What hook does that have? Especially when you knew exactly where it was five seconds ago, before you "lost" it in the first place.
Why the hell loose something that you know where it is, just so that you can find it again? Talk about round about and inefficient.

 

[Glenn West]

You got my attention. I didn't read the entire thing bot coin magic doesn't suck. They are perfect for kids who don't know what cards are. They don't suck. Muscle pass.

Well, um, yeah, I think your post is self explanatory.

 

[Morgan B]

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

 

[Chicken]

What i think would be a really fun thing to do would be to see a coin on the ground, and have it fly up to your hand.

Thread hookup?


Guy on the ground doing a 3 foot muscle pass while hiding in a manhole?

Either way, this would be an example of magic being used in a practical way.

 

[treadstone]

What i think would be a really fun thing to do would be to see a coin on the ground, and have it fly up to your hand.
way.

Cyril did something similar in one of his TV specials (you probably seen it)- at a supermarket he got a coin to float out of a donation box to his fingertips , to pay for an apple, hehe.

 

[coastaldude]

Follow up

Seems like when I was on the road doing shows, the philistines came out to put their “stupid” mark on the forum wall, isn’t that wonderful. Okay, so let’s clear up some of the stupid left by others.

DDToronto – good thinking as, I am not sure your post answers the question, but may bring up some valid points. Do we do things out of tradition rather than logic? Hmm, egg bag, candles that vanish, thimble magic – all this magic is still done, and the props are almost out of place…speaking of out of place…where is my 8-track player? I bet your are asking, “What the hell is an 8 track”?

GosuTricks – coin magic doesn’t always fool. When you ask someone how you did a one coin flurry – they will say, “You hide it in your hand in a way I can’t see it”. Effect selection is important – but most coin tricks created lack the same strict criteria to be considered a “fooler”, as exist in other magic genres. I am interested in, and have found, magic that fools them forever – not just my time at the table. When someone does something like coins to spectator’s hand, like Personal Safe by Daniel Garcia – and you hold your big meaty hand over theirs and a coin drops in it (from your hand)…where do you think the participant thinks it comes from? Do you think this tips the method? Do you not think people think and talk about it once you are gone? My experience says that even though they will be surprised that it is there…as they know nothing of method…they will know that it was in your hand previous – as LOGIC dictates – this leads to method. Anyone read the “Too Perfect Theory” article? If not here - It's a magician's term and the theory goes like this: Any trick that is absolutely astoundingly perfect gives itself away. Pass a cigarette slowly, carefully through a quarter and the observer can only think: Cool quarter with the hole in it. There is no room for doubt, for other possible "solutions" to the trick. However, I don’t’ want to get into the “Too Perfect Theory” argument either, as that could last 100 posts. The point is – coin magic has room to grow with the quality of effects it offers, the emotional and logical hook, and the standards of deception is provides in what exists.

Coastaldude – if you are claiming to people you have the magic powers to bite coins, bend them, and make smoke appear…then this post is not for you. I go under the assumption that the people I perform for are not blithering idiots. I work for intelligent people that enjoy intelligent and fun magic. When you make claims, where the only method to perform a feat could be super powers or a gimmick, what do you think they will believe first? I have a hard time with those effects. So, you can bend a spoon…and quarters…both thin metal objects…but not this pole your mom dances around? Hmm, well, I think you should make some sleeve smoke surround you and disappear. I am not being condescending, that is when someone talks down to you, but if this is the magic you do – this forum thread is not for you. You live in happy magic land, where everyone believes everything you do is “real” magic. Nice – now go play War of Worlds, Magic the Gathering and try not to cry yourself to sleep. Don’t worry, if you are a good boy – Santa will come and give you more magic gimmicks to make friends with. Haha, SLEEVING!?? Haha, yeah audience never thinks it goes up your sleeve…haha, hell they do even when it doesn’t! Oh dude! Thanks for posting.

Sean Cinco – DING DING DING – Sean wins a prize, as he says we can ask these questions about all our magic – AND WE SHOULD!! However, let’s not get unoriginal presentations and perhaps your lack of trying to create stronger magic in other genres, get mixed up with the reality that surrounds coin magic. Yes, some of these things can be said for other parts of magic – but I chose to focus this post on coins for two reasons…other effects are not as commonly performed as coins and I coins appear to have the biggest limitations with the largest effect variety.

To answer the first part of your post Sean – I do have a logical presentation and reason to rip and restore a card – here is one…a picture of your ex-girlfriend that hurt your feelings…you rip it up to forget her, but then reminisce about the good times and want those memories…kinda a “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind theme” – so you put it back together. Magic with meaning and logic, but yes – cups and balls – I don’t have a reason yet, so I don’t do them for people – I do them, just for myself though. Perhaps cups should be played more like a game or explanatory concept – like Vernon did, and the ending acts as a surprise to them, or a kicker. I don’t do cups anymore for this reason though, as you can judge a magician – not by what he does, but what he doesn’t do.

As for your friends thought – magic doesn’t have to have a reason – perhaps not always, but I always find that when it does – it is far more impressive and perhaps closer to the “art” we always argue that magic is or is not. However, I find that when you do magic that gives reason – it emotionally involves them. You gave up too soon Sean. As, what would you rather be if you were a movie….a movie with all special effects but no plot (magic without meaning) or an enjoyable Oscar classic (magic with meaning)? I think there is room for both, and again – this could be another thread – but with coins, there are VERY few Oscar movies…and far too many special effect only plots.

The quote “To be a magician you MUST fool” comes from Jami Ian Swiss – and in no way does he argue that it is JUST fooling people, but you MUST fool them to be a magician – you can’t stop at that obviously, but you must fool them, just like a piano player must know the scales. Again, not many effects in coin work get that job done. If you believe what you said at the end Sean – then my first post should ring true to you…because how many coin effects are easy to explain when watched? The way you ended your post…minus the “real magic” part – it sounds like we are on the same page? You seemed confused Sean – I think you were on the right track before your friend told you it was too hard to think the way you were thinking…and to go back to doing any type of magic that crossed your path. Please PM me if you have any other questions. So far, you are my favourite thinker.



On a side note: two posts have indicated…and a few more implied…that coin magic is good because the MAGICIAN likes it…and not the audiences. Hmm, I thought the audience was what made the magic come to life – but who are you doing coin magic for?

When I have done my tricks, coin, card, whatever else it may be the people will not necessarily believe I have magic powers of any sort. They wonder how I could pull off a stunt like bending a quarter. I have gimmick tricks, I have ACRs, and XCM but the reason I listed some gimmick tricks is the fact that it surprises people to see something in that visual standpoint. I can do the Tivo tricks blah blah blah, if u do a trick good then its fine, but some of my friends are great thinkers and have figured out many tricks such as TNR, Third Degree Burn and some of my ACRs. Honestly I said about u talking down was misworded, you are just talking s**t. I love the insult about my mom and the pole, it really has some originality to it. I dont play any card games like Magic or w/e else there might be. I got into magic to entertain people with impossible tricks, gimmick or not.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

Im going to step out on a limb and disagree with the original post on many points that where made. For one its not about "Look at one coin fly to another", its about the magic and internal entertainment it gives the spectator. When I perform DG's personal safe in which I perform on a regular basis the reactions I get are just as strong as Stigmata due to the presentation behind the effect. I perform Silver Dream and I can floor an audience of dozens as just as effective as any other tricks non-coin related. I think your biased and un-experienced to being able to deliver on coin magic effectively and thats probably due to the fact your minds already made up about coin magic. Digital Dissolve kills and I even use the butter coin from time to time and if correctly executed it delivers a knock out punch.

I think you should purchase Silver Dream practice it till your sick of it and perform it for several months to work out the performance kinks and then come back and tell us if your view is any different on the effectiveness and quality of magic coins can be.

Shane