Enough With Card Flourishes?

[orchestrion]

Whoa guys! Calm down! Don't let this get out of hand. If you agree, that's fine. If you disagree that's fine. No need to bash me though because you have no idea. Last week I made over $650 on magic alone and I'm just a sophomore in high school. I'm not bragging, I'm not trying to take away what you guys think but when I see EVERY video EVERY message EVERY topic just cards cards flourishes flourishes it makes me mad. They have their place, I love Dan and Dave and Katie, they're awesome. But please think before becoming a poser. Do I try to be like Dan and Dave? No. Do I try to be like Criss Angel or David Blaine? No. Why should I even try to BE anybody? You never see somebody famous and say "That's cool! They're just like that guy!" they're themselves which is who I'll be. Let Dan and Dave be Dan and Dave. You be YOU. I'm not saying don't use cards. If they're for you, use them. If you're truly into coins use them but don't try to be like some coin guy you like. Use them for your own personality. I like mentalism mixed with magic but you don't see me saying "I want to be like this guy" I'm trying to make MY place in this world. So if you want to keep flourishing like thousands of other kids go ahead. Dan and Dave made up the flourishes. THEY MADE THEM UP!!! They didn't watch a DVD and get famous because they could do it. They MADE it you see? So while you're copying somebody else, I'm going to make something that thousands of kids like you twenty years from now will be copying.

The walls of text have to stop if you want anybody to take you seriously. Is it that hard to divide your rant into paragraphs?

 

[jimbowmanjr]

Now, over there, we have a magician who - in the same amount of time - performs a dazzling series of flourishes before popping the cards into a one-hand fan and asking the spectator to pick a card.

From this point, they go on to perform the exact same trick. The first magician completes the trick and springs the cards from one hand into the other; the second completes the trick and performs a beautiful cascade of the deck into his other hand.

Who is the better magician?

Technically, neither is really a better magician. The magic is identical. The only difference has been the addition of a few XCM moves. But in the eyes of the audience, the magician using XCM is the better magician, because his presentation required more skill.

The fact that it didn't require more magic skill is a trivial detail. The audience still prefers the more skillful performer, even when the skill isn't magic. We already see this with comedy magic; the trick surrounded by comedy is preferable to the same trick surrounded by 1940s-style patter, because modern audiences demand more from their performers - not because there's some sort of flaw or imperfection in the 1940s version.

I am curious as to how you are drawing your conclusions on what the "audience" prefers. Is this some imaginary static audience or stand in audience as seen in the L&L videos? Is this your opinion as an audience member? Or is this your opinion based on the numerous audiences you have performed for and come to this conclusion?

Thanks.

 

[CDarklock]

Last week I made over $650 on magic alone

Then you'll have my $500 inside of a month, won't you?

when I see EVERY video EVERY message EVERY topic just cards cards flourishes flourishes it makes me mad.

When I search for "flourish" here, I see nine threads in the past week, and this is one of them.

Then I search for "force", which is a reasonably uncommon topic and certainly not as overworked as flourishes, and I find sixteen threads in the past seven days. Almost twice as many.

I search for today's posts alone, and there are more than fifty threads listed.

I suggest you are not paying much attention to what's really going on. I think you see one thread about flourishes on a page of 25 threads, and you go "WTF, everything's all about flourishes".

That's not reality. If it sucks, why not join us in the real world?

So while you're copying somebody else, I'm going to make something that thousands of kids like you twenty years from now will be copying.

You could probably count on one hand the number of enduring effects that were invented by a teenager. And that's charitable, because to my knowledge that number is zero.

And that's in four centuries.

So please, pardon me if I think you're not doing that.

EDIT in lieu of double post:

I am curious as to how you are drawing your conclusions on what the "audience" prefers.

Experience. Human beings behave in predictable and reliable ways, especially when gathered into groups. This is why certain management techniques fail above a certain team size. It's why market segmentation is critical to new product development, but essentially worthless for a brand leader. It's also why the sales pitch that works fantastically at a trade show doesn't sell crap when you stick it in a commercial: commercials speak to smaller groups, where the dynamic is different.

There's an additional variable of cultural context, the literature of which Clotaire Rapaille has extensively contributed, and upon which I can hardly improve. I do occasionally give a seminar on understanding the dynamics of audience size, though, if you're in the western Washington area.

 

[MitchellStafiej]

I've been avoiding this thread for a few reasons. This thread is like the age old fight between skateboarders and rollerbladers. To those talking about "how much money you made with your magic", is that what magic is really about? It's about bringing joy and amazement to your audience, not the money you make. That's why I perform for free. It seems as if no one has any respect for the art of Cardistry and the art of Magic. They both deserve the exact same amount of respect. I don't do Cardistry, but damn do I respect what they do. So much skill and practice goes into what they do. I could never dream of handling a deck of cards like that. As for magic, it's the same. I respect magicians SO much, we bring joy to people's lives daily.

Now if you guys can't respect each other I propose going to another forum, because this isn't the place to have arguments. It started off as a civil debate, things have gotten out of hand.

Mitchell

 

[The Dark Angel]

Guys,

Mitchell is right, this discussion has gotten pretty heated. Things are starting to get out of hand in this thread; let's try and keep our discussions as civilized and respectful as possible. If it continues, I will close the thread, and I don't want to do that, so let's be respectful with our discussions from now on.

TDA

 

[Sergey]

Guys, guys, does it matter if the 2 join or not in 20 years, it's here and now, and they are not the same thing, and you should just go out and have fun, as Mitchell said this is one of those arguments that willl never be solved, like chocolate vs. penut butter.

 

[ThisTwoGoesTo22]

I'm sick of the card juggling. Actually I was never a big fan.


I just skip past it though.

I don't understand the point of this thread.

 

[CDarklock]

Mitchell is right, this discussion has gotten pretty heated.

Yep. People like to do that with me. I say something, they get mad, and they stomp around yelling about it until somebody closes the thread. Sometimes I actually end up banned.

Not that I can do anything about it. If I report the posts to staff before the problem starts, nobody can tell what's wrong with them. If I respond to them, it just creates more fuel for the fire. And by the time staff can see there's a problem, the only thing they can figure out is that I'm right in the middle of it.

So I just go ahead and argue, because it's fun. None of the other options are, and since nothing I do will fix anything, I may as well enjoy myself.

 

[Bonnermagic]

I have a few videos.

One is Dice Stacking... No cards or coins.

And in another I turn a Monkey into a Dog... Purely magical.

We appreciate your opinion here at T11. However we do have different categories in our media section. Some of these kids are truly amazing and I agree that flourishing is taking over the world. So I would suggest to take a look at everything MINUS the "cardistry/fourishing" section. See? Problem solved.

Flourishing is pretty much the future of magic. I have accepted this and now I'm excited to see where it is going to go. It won't be long until flourishing will involve miracles and astound the bahjeesus out of us all.

Happy to have you here on the forums.

Katie

Uh I might be missing something or maybe even going insane but since when was card flourishing a genre of magic??? It isn't magical one bit. It's a completely different artform. I thought that was the whole point of the creation of Decknique. I really don't know why Theory11 is promoting all this cardistry if they want to be the ultimate "magic epicenter." Even though I do some flourishing, magic is my main hobby. In a way, Theory11 is a big turnoff for me and probably many other magicians because of this "flourishing is the future of magic" attitude.
Just voicing my opinion.
Alex

 

[Ampersan5340]

flourishing is a much more difficult hobby than magic. I do both and one compliments the other.

What if I were to rant "Hey magicians stop using ropes, balls, wires, cards and coins, im sick of seeing them being used in magic"

 

[Bonnermagic]

flourishing is a much more difficult hobby than magic. I do both and one compliments the other.

What if I were to rant "Hey magicians stop using ropes, balls, wires, cards and coins, im sick of seeing them being used in magic"

I never said flourishing wasn't hard. I like flourishing. All I'm saying is that it should be completely separate from magic. They are two completely different arts. Flourishing is about showing skill. Sleight of hand is about hiding skill. Two opposites.

 

[CDarklock]

Flourishing is about showing skill. Sleight of hand is about hiding skill.

I don't know that sleight of hand is about hiding your skill; I think it's about having a skill that cannot itself be seen, but its effects can. Sort of like hand shadows - remember when you were a little kid, and you'd make bunny and dog and elephant shadows on the wall with a lamp? Everybody's looking at the shadow, not the hands, but the skill is still in the hands and everyone knows it.

Flourishing is sort of like sleight of hand, too - even when you watch closely, you often can't tell what was done, but only what happened. The best XCM folk look like they're carrying a deck of trained cards and commanding it to do tricks; it takes on a life of its own, and you can almost believe it's some sort of weird pet.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

It's all personal preference on your part. But mixing the two together doesn't seem to work. If you do all these crazy cuts/flourishes and then show a magic trick it won't make sense. Same goes the other way. As for what the audience thinks, maybe they like both or one or the other.

 

[Sean.Cinco]

I practice both flourishing/XCM/cardistry/whatever you want to call it and magic. I keep them seperate because they're two different arts that are pretty damn hard to fully master and without giving either art the respect they deserve, you will fail ultimately.

To the original poster (Sands), I don't mean to call you out or anything, but would you like to post some videos of these "new sensations" that you've created?

 

[jimbowmanjr]

flourishing is a much more difficult hobby than magic. I do both and one compliments the other.

What if I were to rant "Hey magicians stop using ropes, balls, wires, cards and coins, im sick of seeing them being used in magic"

Up until this point no one has said one is harder than the other. It simply isn't true that one is harder than the other, they are both equally difficult to perform. One may utilize sheer dexterity whereas the other relies heavily on showmanship and storytelling. Therein you have two very different skill sets which can't be equally compared.

--Jim

p.s. This has been a healthy discussion for the most part aside from the individual snipes about being smarter or better than the next guy.

 

[CDarklock]

This has been a healthy discussion for the most part aside from the individual snipes about being smarter or better than the next guy.

I believe that started with an accusation of arrogance, didn't it?

 

[-Ty]

Well... how interesting.

I think there is a new fad being seen with an INCREASED interest in flourishing. It's a cool, inventive and creative new niche, and a lot of people are finding themselves drawn to it. These forums are both a magic and cardistry epicenter, so of course you are goign to see threads and videos on it.

And a lot of the people who do these flourishes find that their only real outlet is through videos, so they make em!

Oh and btw, to the original post. You find cards too much of a cliche but think it's completely fine to encourage cups and balls? I enjoy cups and balls when performed well but man, they are one of THE most cliche'd pieces in magic. I mean... seriously???

Ty

 

[CDarklock]

they are one of THE most cliche'd pieces in magic. I mean... seriously???

Houdini once said that the true measure of a magician was how well he performed the cups and balls.

I think there's still a lot of room for creativity in the cups, but people aren't really using it. I've been playing with some miniature card ideas for cups and balls, where I start out by telling someone to take a card from a deck, then quip "keep it, I've got fifty-one more" (stolen line from Groucho Marx) before going into a cups and balls routine where at some point I lift a cup to reveal the card I forced earlier. This could be a natural segue into a discussion of how three-card monte evolved from the cups and balls, as did the classic shell game, and then I could do a cups and shells and miniature cards thing.

That last piece needs a lot of work. I think it would be hysterical to combine the three, but I'm not satisfied with any of my ideas yet.

 

[Steerpike]

For those about to complain about the long post: this is what happens when I make short posts. People jump out of the woodwork to complain that their dysfunctional brains have manufactured some ridiculous monstrosity out of my succinct and concise statement, and demand that I back it up.

Which means I have to explain that their little delusion is not what I said, and that what I said was in fact something else, and why they are not the same thing. And that requires a long post.

And people say I'm arrogant. Clearly dude, there is nothing more to be said in this little tit-for-tat. I wash my hands of the whole affair.

So while you're copying somebody else, I'm going to make something that thousands of kids like you twenty years from now will be copying.

First of all, stop saying that. No one wants to hear it.

Second, I'm not going to read a single one of your posts from here on out until you start using paragraphs. If you can't be bothered to observe basic rules of grammar, I shouldn't be bothered to read it.

Not that I can do anything about it.

You can actually. Mostly by dropping the condescending attitude. Coming from me I know it sounds like crazy talk, but humor me on this one. There is a method to my madness.

I believe that started with an accusation of arrogance, didn't it?

Other people's perceptions of you are largely based on the image of yourself that you project to them.

Just saying...

Oh and btw, to the original post. You find cards too much of a cliche but think it's completely fine to encourage cups and balls? I enjoy cups and balls when performed well but man, they are one of THE most cliche'd pieces in magic. I mean... seriously???

The problem with the cups and balls is the same as the proble with the pass: too many people see it as an end unto itself, rather the means to an end.

 

[Mat La Vore]

Sorry to sound like a jerk but HAS THIS EVER GOTTEN OUT OF HAND!!! Is Theory 11 just a fancy name for a flourish website!?! I'M TIRED OF SEEING VIDEO AFTER VIDEO OF PEOPLE DOING THE SAME EXACT THING!!! This is entirely my opinion but if you were magic would you be doing flourishes, let alone CARDS!?! NO!!! The only time this sight shines is when they create something new and not just a remake of something else (which in all honesty hasn't been anything). So go ahead and flame me with how much flourishes are good and "blah blah blah I wanna be just like Dan and Dave blah blah blah" Can't you find your own niche? If you like flourishes go for it. I have no problem with it but I hate how it's like, what everybody at Theory 11 does. Everybody just tries to be like everybody else. To be honest I hate cards and I hate coins. They're good utilities and I DO use them but we're MAGICIANS!!! We look SUPERNATURAL!!! Not, "what a slick prankster trickster" but MAGICAL!!! We make things happen that couldn't possibly happen and distort people's imaginations! How can we expand their world if we can't expand beyond the deck of cards!?! If you agree with me get some REAL stuff. Not "Card Trick/Flourishes/Card Card Cardilly Cards" but something like Banachek's PK Touches, Jay Sankey: Supernatural, Luke Jermay material, or even a set of cups and balls with a Michael Ammar DVD. Ditch the card cliche. It took me awhile to realize cards are so overused and I look like every other magician when I use them. Somebody said "Can't you do anything else other than card tricks?" and right there I thought "They're right. It's all cards cards cards and no MAGIC." Luckily I knew some sleight of hand from an old Ammar DVD and blew them away. I need to be different. So nothing against people who truly wanted to become CARDICIANS (which is real if you don't know) when they came here but when good magicians use cards cards cards cards it's so boring, predictable, and shows you have the average talent. Break the mold! Theory 11, if you delete this I can understand but if you're the site you claim to be you'll let us have opinions...

Learn to write with proper punctuation and paragraph breaks and maybe more people will read what you have to say. (I didn't.)