New Video from my buddy

[Tower of Lunatic Meat]

I'm full of caffeine and felling goofy. Let's do this!

Yes. Absolutely yes. Imagine this. Lebron James gets a wide open fast break. You want him to lay up or dunk the ball?

Having lived in Las Vegas for 12 years and having spent a fair amount in casinos. My answer is: 'whatever helps MY point spread better!'

I see where you're going with your example. However, I think that the only thing that the audience cares about is the fact that you made 2 points. It's still possible to go for a dunk and completely miss.

Plus, dunking is a complete show of force of 'look what I can do!' Same for most cardistry application.

You ever perform a ribbon spread or a spring before to an audience?

I'm going to be honest. I haven't.

So easy. So simple, yet they seem to be so impressed with just that and it puts a smile on their face. Why not do it? Why not add that layer of skill for a smile or chuckle.

I used to do stand-up comedy. Read a few books and did open-mics for 3 years. One of the biggest lessons I learned from both the books, performing, talking with people who did actual gigs in Vegas, and seeing other peoples sets is to condense your act and purge unnecessary filler from your act at every turn. A line here, a few words there, switch a couple lines. If you watch professional comedians, there's little to no filler in what they are saying. If they are telling a story, it's like you're being led on a sight-seeing tour. But they are telling you ONLY the best places and things to look at and driving in the most direct route possible. I have seen some sets where I wished the punchline would FINALLY arrive and just put me out of my misery.

I feel like 95% of cardistry moves, in a magic set, is adding unnecessary detail for the sake of a quick reaction. However, I feel like you lose more by tipping your hand by showing a blatant display of skill.

[QUOTE="ChrisJGJ, post: 457959, member: 159317"I understand the concern with spectators perhaps burning your hands more now that they realize you're a god with a deck of cards, but I feel a polished routine doesn't worry too much about this. Perhaps I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

A polished routine and good character will go a long ways. But I'm not sure if cardistry is the kind of polish you need for a routine.

I'm not saying it isn't possible. Part of it is that there really isn't a lot of cardistry/magic hybrid stuff out there. And what is out there currently only looks neat.

I was big into cardistry for 2 years, and I sought after more ways to try and integrate both. I came to the conclusion that most cardistry moves are unusable due to grips, complexity, showing a flash, where certain packets start and end, etc.

It just seems that if you were to implement cardistry in a hybrid routine, I'd say about 90% of that inventory would be comprised of basic moves.

At least, I can't see how something like 'Cylinder' could be implemented. I'd love I see it attempted, mainly because I cannot figure out how to feasibly make it happen.

 

[ChrisJGJ]

Of course, in my professional work I don't even use cards. Because if I could do real magic, I wouldn't bother transporting cards from one place to another.

Exactly. The spectator would agree. Which is why many magicians performing card tricks specifically will call it "just tricks", because they don't want to insult the spectator's intelligence by implying that they are performing something really magical.

I am of the school of thought that any hints towards a physical method will detract from the possibility of a magical explanation.

A very simple example:

1) A card is selected, memorized, and slid into the middle of the deck with just a bit protruding. The performer flashes the card once more, pushes it fully into the deck, then splits the deck into three packets, each flipping over and swinging around his fingers in a deft display of skill, to ensure the card is thoroughly lost in the deck. He sets the deck on the table, then shows the top card briefly, showing it is not the selection. He then steps back and asks the volunteer to concentrate on their card, imagine it on top of the deck, and asks them to turn over the top card. Tada! The indifferent card has become the selection.

2) A card is selected, memorized, and slid into the middle of the deck with just a bit protruding. The performer flashes the card once more, sets the deck on the table, and firmly squares the deck. He invites the volunteer to imagine that card melting up through the deck, until it is on top whereas a moment ago it was clearly in the middle. The volunteer is asked to turn over to the top card, finding their selection there.

Which seems more magical? In the first example, the obvious solution (whether it is correct or not) is that something happened during that confusing bit with the packets (Which, by the way, I was imagining Joel Paschal's Death to the Double Undercut) that brought the card to the top, and the first display was a fake. The second one has no explanation.

Now we're just saying the same thing.

And I don't think Ramsay is suggesting you "lose" a card in the middle and control it to the top with a fancy cardistry cut. More like instead of revealing the selected card by just simply flipping it over, you give it a sexy pirouette, and ferris for the reveal.

But fine, lets assume he only meant fancy and extreme packet manipulation and cuts. In this case, I 100 percent agree with you. Any of this turns the trick into a display of skill rather than magic.

 

[ChrisJGJ]

I see where you're going with your example. However, I think that the only thing that the audience cares about is the fact that you made 2 points.

Then why do less people watch the WNBA? They're layuping everything over there.

It's still possible to go for a dunk and completely miss.

Actually a dunk is a higher percentage shot, and from a defenders point of view is much more difficult to defend. We've moved so far away from magic now...apologies.

Plus, dunking is a complete show of force of 'look what I can do!' Same for most cardistry application.

That's what you think of a dunk? That honestly, and I really don't mean to be rude, sounds like the bitter guy who was never good at sports in high school. I don't mean you, I just mean that's what that comment sounds like. Dunking is a high percentage way of scoring, difficult to defend and inherently entertaining.

Perhaps we can just agree to disagree on certain parts. I perform magic for students at my college for practice and busk a little in downtown to see if I can make a few bucks to pay for my obsession with luxury playing cards. I perform magic to entertain and for a fun way to make some supplementary cash. I don't do it for a living. So my view on what magic is is not to make it a magical experience, but to make it entertaining. Tell jokes and stories with my magic to get laughs and connect with a some what younger audience (20's).

Again, just like with ChristopherT I agree with you that high volume packet manipulation is difficult to incorporate into magic. I don't do it. But some flourishy stuff here and there definitely adds a layer of entertainment that in my experience, spectators enjoy.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

The accepted general meaning of "cardistry" is the multi-packet, fancy cuts like the one Madison just taught on the E channel, which I just happened to watch. So when someone talks about integrating cardistry with card magic, that's what they mean - or they should clarify that they mean something else.

It doesn't take a pro to create magical experience, it takes someone who's focused on creating a magical experience.

And I do want to clarify something - I do not, in any way, think that everyone doing magic has to have similar goals to me. There is a place for, and a value in, the people who just want to entertain, and the tricksters, and the serious storyteller, and all other forms of self-expression through magic. My thoughts are simply regarding the approach that I take.

But I also think more people need to think about what they are doing and saying and thinking, and how that can sometimes be at odds with what they claim to want to create.

People complain that audiences don't take magic seriously - but the person complaining doesn't take it seriously, either. You cannot present as trivial (just a trick) and expect people to react to it as if it were a miracle. But you can take something that maybe most people treat as a triviality and turn it into a miracle.

The most common feedback I get for my shows is that it is a show for intelligent people. I treat my audiences with respect, and I perform my work straight. I rarely do 'tricks' and when I do, I point it out as being the unusual part of my show. "I don't do tricks like this any more," or "I haven't gotten to do this trick since I started my real work", that sort of thing.

You can certainly perform magic as if it were the real deal and still treat your audience with respect. It's just not easy, and it takes a lot of work, and it's not something that gets immediate satisfaction. You have to write a script and rehearse it until it's natural and build the atmosphere and do the work for it. Which is why, I suspect, most magicians don't do it.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Honestly, you can just choose if you want to use cardistry/flourishes, or not. I mean, it helps some acts, but doesn't work for others. I know some people who will choose to use cardistry and incorporate it within their act, because it fits their style. However, there are people who cannot use flourishes because they don't know when to use them.
For example, we can All Agree that Dan and Dave are exceptional innovators in magic. They use cardistry all the time, because it fits their act. However, you wont see Penn and Teller, for example, using cardistry. They draw attention in different methods. Why is this even a debate?
Furthermore, people use cardistry for different reasons. I use minor flourishes to clean up my act, and draw attention/misdirect. I know people who do cardistry to draw in a crowd. Others use it to entertain. In no scenario do they show something that says "hey look at me, because I'm better than you". Its just like busking - a freestyle footballer, or a musician do it to entertain.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

The first is of Shin Lim. This video isn't the greatest example of total integration but I think you can see the ways he has combined it. For some one like Shin Lim this is part of his style and in this clip he uses the flourishes to keep the viewer engaged between the magic moments. It looks interesting.

OK that was really good. That may be my favorite piece of Shin's.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Honestly, you can just choose if you want to use cardistry/flourishes, or not. I mean, it helps some acts, but doesn't work for others. I know some people who will choose to use cardistry and incorporate it within their act, because it fits their style. However, there are people who cannot use flourishes because they don't know when to use them.
For example, we can All Agree that Dan and Dave are exceptional innovators in magic. They use cardistry all the time, because it fits their act. However, you wont see Penn and Teller, for example, using cardistry. They draw attention in different methods. Why is this even a debate?

Because debating things is how you develop opinions and philosophies on a subject. It helps you identify weaknesses in your approach and where you may have made assumptions that were incorrect.

You don't have to read the threads.

But I always favor thinking more over thinking less.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Because debating things is how you develop opinions and philosophies on a subject. It helps you identify weaknesses in your approach and where you may have made assumptions that were incorrect.

You don't have to read the threads.

But I always favor thinking more over thinking less.

That is 100% True, but why is this specifically a debate? Its like saying "Hey, I don't like the colour blue." and arguing over the usage of a colour.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Don't confuse the term "Debate" with "Argument".

We're discussing points from our respective points of view, with the thinking behind it. This is good - this exposes each of us to another person's perspective and it can only help one get better to do that.

 

[David Brooke]

I remember a video that Michael O'Brien released included him telling the audience that he wouldn't 'do any fancy cuts like this one' and presumed to do the 'fancy cut' to show them what he wouldn't do to show that he's not doing sneaky moves.

Because of the context he used it in, the audience didn't suspect any secret moves took place, and it was really well done. I have a feeling that if he did it out of context, the audience would suspect that something was afoot.

 

[ChrisJGJ]

I remember a video that Michael O'Brien released included him telling the audience that he wouldn't 'do any fancy cuts like this one' and presumed to do the 'fancy cut' to show them what he wouldn't do to show that he's not doing sneaky moves.

Because of the context he used it in, the audience didn't suspect any secret moves took place, and it was really well done. I have a feeling that if he did it out of context, the audience would suspect that something was afoot.

Tu Tu Transpo or something. It's funny you mention that because I remember that scene and immediately thinking, "you just did it...".

EDIT: Sike nevermind. I think it was ambitious Ink.

 

[Tower of Lunatic Meat]

Then why do less people watch the WNBA?

For one, I haven't seen any mention of WNBA for a very very long time up until you brought it up. It's just never put out there in advertisements, commercials, billboards. Anything.

That's what you think of a dunk? That honestly, and I really don't mean to be rude, sounds like the bitter guy who was never good at sports in high school. I don't mean you, I just mean that's what that comment sounds like. Dunking is a high percentage way of scoring, difficult to defend and inherently entertaining.

Fair enough. I'm not bitter about sports. I don't understand the hype and excitement about it. Doesn't help that I live in Texas, whose dedication to football is comparable with that of a cocaine enthusiast.


Dang. You got me off track too!

 

[Josh Burch]

That is 100% True, but why is this specifically a debate? Its like saying "Hey, I don't like the colour blue." and arguing over the usage of a colour.

Things can get heated but I think that we can keep things civil as we discuss. The dirt is in the details and I think it's okay to debate these small things.

 

[ProAma]

Their is nothing in this discussion anymore except people who do cardistry and those that don't. If you do not do cardistry (meaning you should know more than basic stuff) you do not have an entitlement to say where it belongs and in what context. My points I have made are all correct. Furthermore, those who do not adapt to the times and those who do not seek knowledge will not grow in any career.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

In my experience, the way of the future is far more spiritually minded and seeking of a meaningful experience rather than the flashy, show offy style that was popular in the 80s and 90s.

But that also really depends on the people one surrounds themselves with. I am the type of person who goes to Burning Man, visits weird art installations, sees concerts in people's apartments, and buys artwork created by hipsters using ridiculously specific methods. I hang with sideshow freaks, burlesque dancers, circus barkers, fire dancers, psychics, witches, anarchists, "reformed" charlatans ... these people are my friends.

I can understand the appeal of the flash for certain groups. Those are not my target audience. My target audience is, to put it in very general terms, hipsters and pagans. People who want to explore unique experiences and are willing to pay to do so. It's working pretty well for me.

I work events ranging from steampunk conventions, to private parties, to universities, to festivals, to people's basements. People travel hours to see me perform.

But most people could not do what I do. Even if I taught them everything I know, if they are not me they couldn't do it. And that's a good thing. Because the magic world needs variety. There's a place for every kind of performer in my opinion.

But to think that there's any single "right" way to do things is just absurd. That's the lesson you need to learn about the future. There is no universal necessity in magic performance. You don't -need- to any specific trick. You don't -need- to use any specific props. You don't even -need- a website like so many people say you do. I know some very successful guys who work only through word of mouth - absolutely nothing online. Not even a Facebook.

So what it comes down to is this: What exactly are your goals? What are the challenges inherent in those goals? How do you overcome those challenges?

Once those questions are answered you have a plan of action. Do it.

 

[David Brooke]

Tu Tu Transpo or something. It's funny you mention that because I remember that scene and immediately thinking, "you just did it...".

EDIT: Sike nevermind. I think it was ambitious Ink.

Yeah, I think it was ambitious ink.

Their is nothing in this discussion anymore except people who do cardistry and those that don't. If you do not do cardistry (meaning you should know more than basic stuff) you do not have an entitlement to say where it belongs and in what context. My points I have made are all correct. Furthermore, those who do not adapt to the times and those who do not seek knowledge will not grow in any career.

That's like saying 'You don't cook, so you have no right saying if food is good or bad.'
Cardistry was a point that he made, and it's a point that splits up a few people. Personally I think it's the same as hack lines. If there is a reason behind it, and there's proper context, it is ok to do. I think that everyone has the potential to bring something new to the discussion, because the world has many different people with many different perspectives on things. Seeing a discussion and saying 'you can't post here' because they have different experiences will never let the post flourish and rise to its true potential.

Oh, and that pun wasn't intended.

 

[RealityOne]

Don't confuse the term "Debate" with "Argument".

Actually, from a rhetorical perspective, a debate is just a structured form of argument. Argument is the process of explaining and supporting your position with the purpose of having people agree with you. An argument can be contained in a debate, a speech, a position paper or even an internet post. What most people think of as an argument is people yelling glib catch phrases and pejorative adjectives at each other without any expectation of the other person agreeing with them. Is that an argument, yes. Is it effective, no. I like Stephen Covey's principle of "seek first to understand and then to be understood."

Their is nothing in this discussion anymore except people who do cardistry and those that don't.

And, there is nothing in this discussion anymore except people who can eat fire and those who don't. Or maybe, people who did a double lift yesterday and those who didn't. By excluding nobody you include everyone.

If you do not do cardistry (meaning you should know more than basic stuff) you do not have an entitlement to say where it belongs and in what context.

I've often found that those who say people don't have an entitlement to say something are just saying they don't want to listen to or learn from anyone who disagrees with them.

I don't do cardistry. I've seen cardistry. It is a display of skill. If you follow a display of skill with a trick, the obvious methodology is that the trick is also a display of skill. That conclusion has nothing to do with knowledge of cardistry, but more so a knowledge of human nature, perception and showmanship.

My points I have made are all correct.

To be convinced of your own certainty is to ignore the opportunity for learning.

Furthermore, those who do not adapt to the times and those who do not seek knowledge will not grow in any career.

So my question is are you willing to seek knowledge or do you want to end any discussions based on your decision that nobody else is entitled to have an opinion and that your opinion is correct?

 

[ProAma]

Actually, from a rhetorical perspective, a debate is just a structured form of argument. Argument is the process of explaining and supporting your position with the purpose of having people agree with you. An argument can be contained in a debate, a speech, a position paper or even an internet post. What most people think of as an argument is people yelling glib catch phrases and pejorative adjectives at each other without any expectation of the other person agreeing with them. Is that an argument, yes. Is it effective, no. I like Stephen Covey's principle of "seek first to understand and then to be understood."



And, there is nothing in this discussion anymore except people who can eat fire and those who don't. Or maybe, people who did a double lift yesterday and those who didn't. By excluding nobody you include everyone.



I've often found that those who say people don't have an entitlement to say something are just saying they don't want to listen to or learn from anyone who disagrees with them.

I don't do cardistry. I've seen cardistry. It is a display of skill. If you follow a display of skill with a trick, the obvious methodology is that the trick is also a display of skill. That conclusion has nothing to do with knowledge of cardistry, but more so a knowledge of human nature, perception and showmanship.



To be convinced of your own certainty is to ignore the opportunity for learning.



So my question is are you willing to seek knowledge or do you want to end any discussions based on your decision that nobody else is entitled to have an opinion and that your opinion is correct?

Dude you can spew all day every day but I know the first comment you made on this thread. Now you are just being a hypocrite and mad about my points I have after.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Guess that answers his question.

 

[ProAma]

Guess that answers his question.

I know more than magic. I am a polymath. I have interned with think tanks. I don't just say I'm something to be included more in a group. I help people on here with real answers. Practical realistic ones. Not some "finely crafted" words that hold no value