OFFICIAL: What do you guys think? Voice your opinion.
- Thread starter jonraiker
- Start date
feeling invaded
Okay, I actually don't mind the look of the site however similar it is to ellusionist. I like the aim of Theory11 how they're all about helping people become better performers. Before now i haven't seen any other website promote this idea.
That aside, my concern is similar to harapan's. I'm unable to see of a way to prevent magicians who don't respect the art from exposing such great tricks. I've spoken to a few people about what they think about Theory11 and it seems to me like they feel "cheated". For one, this site isn't truly "underground" or else not just anyone would be allowed in here. Secondly, decknique, the place where most experienced Card handlers felt the freedom to discuss just about anything is now closing down and moving here. To me it's almost like the experienced handlers have been invaded with the inexperienced and no longer have the freedom to discuss more advanced effects/flourishes.
The solution I propose, however elitist this may sound, is that a closed forum for "experienced" magicians/flourishes be created and along with this closed forum, a method of determining who is indeed worthy of being accepted into this forum. An example of a method of figuring out who is worthy is maybe a video submission to be viewed by theory11 artists and maybe an essay along with that video submission containing your background and your views on what a good performer/magician/flourisher is.
Even though this may be exclusive, it does provide the more experienced handlers with a truly "underground" area to speak freely and it also inspires the beginners to get better faster.
This is only one possible solution so lemme know what you think and if you've got a better one please post it.
-Ian Jenkins
Okay, I actually don't mind the look of the site however similar it is to ellusionist. I like the aim of Theory11 how they're all about helping people become better performers. Before now i haven't seen any other website promote this idea.
That aside, my concern is similar to harapan's. I'm unable to see of a way to prevent magicians who don't respect the art from exposing such great tricks. I've spoken to a few people about what they think about Theory11 and it seems to me like they feel "cheated". For one, this site isn't truly "underground" or else not just anyone would be allowed in here. Secondly, decknique, the place where most experienced Card handlers felt the freedom to discuss just about anything is now closing down and moving here. To me it's almost like the experienced handlers have been invaded with the inexperienced and no longer have the freedom to discuss more advanced effects/flourishes.
The solution I propose, however elitist this may sound, is that a closed forum for "experienced" magicians/flourishes be created and along with this closed forum, a method of determining who is indeed worthy of being accepted into this forum. An example of a method of figuring out who is worthy is maybe a video submission to be viewed by theory11 artists and maybe an essay along with that video submission containing your background and your views on what a good performer/magician/flourisher is.
Even though this may be exclusive, it does provide the more experienced handlers with a truly "underground" area to speak freely and it also inspires the beginners to get better faster.
This is only one possible solution so lemme know what you think and if you've got a better one please post it.
-Ian Jenkins
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry, clarifying something here:
The main point of my long post is not the design of the page. Please focus more on the problem of "bad magic culture".
I want my post to generate discussion. Thanks.
- harapan. magic!
The main point of my long post is not the design of the page. Please focus more on the problem of "bad magic culture".
I want my post to generate discussion. Thanks.
- harapan. magic!
Ok.. well..
my opinion on this site is that... ITS AMAZING
its amazing how much effort the whole T11 team is pulling off...
the quality of the site and the products its overwhelming but as a international customer
i have some advises for the site but the most important one would be an skype contact for the international customers...
cause im having this issue with the credit/debit card system (i cant place an order) and as funny as it sounds, i could be able to send you guys an army of customer tickets but that is waaay slower (althouhg your customer support ts great) and for some reason international calls (im speaking for mexico but im sure others would have a similar problem) cant get the privileges of the toll free number that you have.
Phone call rates are high (a 15 ~ 20 minutes call costed me like 40 bucks) and when the e-mail cant solve your issue and you really want to buy something being not able to talk one on one to solve the problem really discorauges someone to buy from online stores.
anyway im not mad or angry i just want the site to be better in that aspect.
my opinion on this site is that... ITS AMAZING
its amazing how much effort the whole T11 team is pulling off...
the quality of the site and the products its overwhelming but as a international customer
i have some advises for the site but the most important one would be an skype contact for the international customers...
cause im having this issue with the credit/debit card system (i cant place an order) and as funny as it sounds, i could be able to send you guys an army of customer tickets but that is waaay slower (althouhg your customer support ts great) and for some reason international calls (im speaking for mexico but im sure others would have a similar problem) cant get the privileges of the toll free number that you have.
Phone call rates are high (a 15 ~ 20 minutes call costed me like 40 bucks) and when the e-mail cant solve your issue and you really want to buy something being not able to talk one on one to solve the problem really discorauges someone to buy from online stores.
anyway im not mad or angry i just want the site to be better in that aspect.
I think that is unfair. Ellusionist the company does not encourage exposure or anything like that. If anything Ellusionist suffers most at the hands of exposure because their products are the ones that are most frequently exposed.
People expose for an ego boost, and lets face it, that means these people want to get as many hits as they can. So when these people have a choice of putting up a tutorial of the latest must have street magic trick (although nowadays people have replaced 'street' with 'underground') or something from The Royal Road to Card Magic for example, they are going to explain the 'crowd puller'. The trick that people are searching for, and there are no prizes for guessing which one that will be.
Popular effects are the ones that are exposed. Ellusionist became very popular, and a lot of their effects have been exposed as a result. That does not mean that it is ellusionists fault. Theory 11 is already attracting a lot of attention, and that attention is something that some will want to tap into by exposing their products.
Exposure has been going on for ages and it will be going on for ages. First thing I would like to say is it doesn't actually matter that much, unless of course you frequently perform for exposure seekers in which case I want to ask 'WHY?!?!?'. I myself have never heard anyone say 'oh I know that trick, it's XXXX'
Secondly, T11 stuff WILL be exposed. No point in pretending otherwise. But hey, if exposure really bothers you that much why don't you look up some material that isn't being posted all over the internet. Royal Road to Card Magic, Card College, Tarbell, Jennings, Dingle, Vernon, Marlo etc. etc.
There's plenty of brilliant stuff out there that many people who 'dig' this exposing culture haven't even heard of. Learn that stuff and you won't have anything to worry about.
Tom
Good to see you as well Joshua. The projects are going very well. No time really to keep up with all these threads(hahaha). I will though make time to work on the effects I will be ordering next week from this site. Really strong looking magic.
Jeremy
What do I think of Theory 11?
Well I have to agree with others that it is sort of an E look a like but the reason for that is understandable. The sites design looks a little less plain though so I would have to say I think it is better. The site was given a lot of hype due to the trailers that were released once a week and I think that was a great idea. It really begged the question "What is Theory 11?" I can't really comment on the effects that much though because I own none of them but based on the demo, I think they look awsome. The guardian cards look great too. It was a good idea to open up a site that already has custom cards. All in all, I think Theory 11 made a good start but still needs to work hard in order to truly be one of the best.
Well I have to agree with others that it is sort of an E look a like but the reason for that is understandable. The sites design looks a little less plain though so I would have to say I think it is better. The site was given a lot of hype due to the trailers that were released once a week and I think that was a great idea. It really begged the question "What is Theory 11?" I can't really comment on the effects that much though because I own none of them but based on the demo, I think they look awsome. The guardian cards look great too. It was a good idea to open up a site that already has custom cards. All in all, I think Theory 11 made a good start but still needs to work hard in order to truly be one of the best.
Mr Bijlogg:
Thank you for your post.
It's exactly what happens with Ellusionist that I don't wish to see here: Ellusionist, a highly popular site, has been bombarded with these stuff about exposure and not respecting magic and whatnot. I see Theory 11 becoming extremely popular in the near future, and that is good, BUT I do not wish to see the same thing happen over here, with tons of exposers filling up the place. Not just exposers, but people who cannot respect magic.
Just because it is going to happen (which I hope not) doesn't mean we should just not care about it. I, for one, agree that instead of just complaining, we should in fact practise your stuff, go out there, perform well, spread magic to the world around you. No point complaining.
But I hope my post didn't come by as a complain, but as a serious shout-out to Theory 11 to look into this matter. It may be unfair to say Ellusionist promotes exposure (which I am sure they don't), but I believe to some extent, their popularity and the way they portray magic may have indirectly contributed to this unfortunate phenomenon. For example, Ellusionist may have emphasized too much about how you can be Blaine in hours, or emphasized on getting reactions from people, freaking people out, shattering reality etc. No one can become a magician in hours - that's why many youths don't practise hard enough before performing. Emphasizing that with magic, you have "power" to make people scream is just... in my humble opinion, making youths very egoistical, maybe? It's as if magic is used to make yourself a god of some sort. This leads to the problem of letting the art compliment you, when you should be complimenting the art.
All I am saying is, I don't want the same thing to happen on Theory 11. Can we have a popular magic website that has minimal or ideally no exposure magicians? Can we have a popular magic website that produces good young magicians? That's what I want to see in Theory 11.
- harapan. magic!
EDITED: To be fair to Theory 11, I am very happy to see they have something here that can promote good magician culture. On the Beginners page on Theory 11, they have a list of good magic habits on how to start on magic, and also a video of the artists giving good, valuable advice to young magicians, compared to Ellusionist's Beginners page will says things like "We want to give you the power to SHATTER REALITY. We offer you all these stuff" followed by a list of magic products that is a "must-have" to be a magician. That's what I mean: promote good culture: be it kids trying to start in magic, or hobbyists, or even that one guy who just wants to learn one trick to impress someone, Theory 11 should help them respect the art, know that magic takes time and practise to do properly. I hope to see more of such things in the future.
Thank you for your post.
It's exactly what happens with Ellusionist that I don't wish to see here: Ellusionist, a highly popular site, has been bombarded with these stuff about exposure and not respecting magic and whatnot. I see Theory 11 becoming extremely popular in the near future, and that is good, BUT I do not wish to see the same thing happen over here, with tons of exposers filling up the place. Not just exposers, but people who cannot respect magic.
Just because it is going to happen (which I hope not) doesn't mean we should just not care about it. I, for one, agree that instead of just complaining, we should in fact practise your stuff, go out there, perform well, spread magic to the world around you. No point complaining.
But I hope my post didn't come by as a complain, but as a serious shout-out to Theory 11 to look into this matter. It may be unfair to say Ellusionist promotes exposure (which I am sure they don't), but I believe to some extent, their popularity and the way they portray magic may have indirectly contributed to this unfortunate phenomenon. For example, Ellusionist may have emphasized too much about how you can be Blaine in hours, or emphasized on getting reactions from people, freaking people out, shattering reality etc. No one can become a magician in hours - that's why many youths don't practise hard enough before performing. Emphasizing that with magic, you have "power" to make people scream is just... in my humble opinion, making youths very egoistical, maybe? It's as if magic is used to make yourself a god of some sort. This leads to the problem of letting the art compliment you, when you should be complimenting the art.
All I am saying is, I don't want the same thing to happen on Theory 11. Can we have a popular magic website that has minimal or ideally no exposure magicians? Can we have a popular magic website that produces good young magicians? That's what I want to see in Theory 11.
- harapan. magic!
EDITED: To be fair to Theory 11, I am very happy to see they have something here that can promote good magician culture. On the Beginners page on Theory 11, they have a list of good magic habits on how to start on magic, and also a video of the artists giving good, valuable advice to young magicians, compared to Ellusionist's Beginners page will says things like "We want to give you the power to SHATTER REALITY. We offer you all these stuff" followed by a list of magic products that is a "must-have" to be a magician. That's what I mean: promote good culture: be it kids trying to start in magic, or hobbyists, or even that one guy who just wants to learn one trick to impress someone, Theory 11 should help them respect the art, know that magic takes time and practise to do properly. I hope to see more of such things in the future.
I agree, you can't become a magician in hours, but what you have to remember is that ellusionist is a business at the end of the day. They realise (as does this site, go see for yourself) that flashy trailers and people screaming will sell magic.
Sure theory 11 has all this advice on practicing and being yourself, that's all over the E forums as well and that same advice is given in many of ellusionists DVDs. But it's all irrelevant because at the end of the day, exposure doesn't happen because someone hasn't practiced enough. They don't sit down in front of a camera and acidentally explain what they are doing because they haven't practiced. In the same way people don't upload ripped DVDs to torrent sites because they haven't practiced enough.
It's because they are attention seeking and like I said in my last post the reason they post ellusionist's effects is because they know that they are the popular ones and that will get them the hits they need for their ego boost.
OK, perhaps the marketing techniques are not the best over at ellusionist with the 'learn this in hours' approach etc. But that does not contribute to exposure, only bad learning habits and the forums over there are good if you ask me. Sure, there are lots of people asking stupid questions and getting excited over releases, but that's because they just haven't learnt yet. The higher members over there do a great job in steering them in the right direction and making them better magicians.
And also, who hasn't been excited over a release at some point in time.
Theory 11 promises to magically raise a generation of super magicians. I think the desire to do so is very real among the team here. But the way they are going about it seems wrong to me. What we need for your dream is a forum that guides and mentors young magicians and points them in the direction of truly great products, tarbell, designing miracles etc.
Instead i see more of the same. Single tricks going for $25 each all advertised with flashy trailers and loud reactions. Quote from Dan Buck's review of digital distortion 'the reaction you see in the video you get every time'.
What they're saying is all very nice, but look at what's actually being done. We have another magic shop. A nice one, sure, but that's all it really is.
Tom
Mr Bijlogg:
Thanks.
It's great to generate some discussion here. After reading what you have to say, I pretty much agree with most of it. I cannot blame Ellusionist for using flashy advertising, because as you said, it's a business company, they have to sell stuff. But that's what I don't wish to see in Theory 11. And currently, from what I see, Theory 11 is moving towards that. I hope they will put Magic before Money first.
About the issue on Ellusionist "noobs"... well, let's just say that with the impression I get, somehow Ellusionist has become an icon for bad magicians. I am sure the higher members are awesome, matured individuals, but very often, it's the black sheep that bring the name down. And I believe Ellusionist has A LOT of that black sheep... at least from what I feel and see. I hope Theory 11 can become a site that brings up the next generation of super magicians as you said... we can only hope Theory 11 doesn't breed egoistic young magicians who can't respect the art.
Thanks for your insights, Mr Bijlogg (Tom), I wish you the best.
- harapan. magic!
Thanks.
It's great to generate some discussion here. After reading what you have to say, I pretty much agree with most of it. I cannot blame Ellusionist for using flashy advertising, because as you said, it's a business company, they have to sell stuff. But that's what I don't wish to see in Theory 11. And currently, from what I see, Theory 11 is moving towards that. I hope they will put Magic before Money first.
About the issue on Ellusionist "noobs"... well, let's just say that with the impression I get, somehow Ellusionist has become an icon for bad magicians. I am sure the higher members are awesome, matured individuals, but very often, it's the black sheep that bring the name down. And I believe Ellusionist has A LOT of that black sheep... at least from what I feel and see. I hope Theory 11 can become a site that brings up the next generation of super magicians as you said... we can only hope Theory 11 doesn't breed egoistic young magicians who can't respect the art.
Thanks for your insights, Mr Bijlogg (Tom), I wish you the best.
- harapan. magic!
Wishful thinking, eh? Hmm...
THEORY 11, HEAR US! LISTEN TO US! MAKE IT HAPPEN! MAGIC BEFORE MONEY! BREED SUPER MAGICIANS!
Thank you.
- harapan. magic!
THEORY 11, HEAR US! LISTEN TO US! MAKE IT HAPPEN! MAGIC BEFORE MONEY! BREED SUPER MAGICIANS!
Thank you.
- harapan. magic!
Well, I think the site is well designed, I don't actually see how people are comparing it to Ellusionist to be entirely honest *shrug*
I'm kinda glad that the forums have started to calm down a little, that was my only problem was the lack of staff (although I'm sure Mr Raiker was trying his best) at the start and everything was a bit of a mess.
Big fan of the tricks that they have for sale, I can't wait to see more stuff. Guardians are awesome, magicians posting on the forums is awesome, I am hoping it's just not a "post in the first two weeks and then you can vanish when everything settles down" although I am sure it won't be.
Very happy to be a member here at T11.
Good times
I'm kinda glad that the forums have started to calm down a little, that was my only problem was the lack of staff (although I'm sure Mr Raiker was trying his best) at the start and everything was a bit of a mess.
Big fan of the tricks that they have for sale, I can't wait to see more stuff. Guardians are awesome, magicians posting on the forums is awesome, I am hoping it's just not a "post in the first two weeks and then you can vanish when everything settles down" although I am sure it won't be.
Very happy to be a member here at T11.
Good times
I think the only suggestion I have is an option to view the new posts since yer last visit like a lot of the other boards have. (Dunno if this kinda layout has that option but.. thought I would say something.)