That too, was my answer to some of my professors in my school at wich they only replyed:
I actually used Jeff Mcbride as an example when I was arguing with them.
Is Cardistry just "Showing Off"?
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That too, was my answer to some of my professors in my school at wich they only replyed:
I actually used Jeff Mcbride as an example when I was arguing with them.
How would they define art then? Yes, I believe it can stand on its own. Why couldn't it, in the hands of a skilled creator?
However, like theatre, which is often accompanied by music, and set design, and costumes, the experience can often be enhanced by the music. But just as theatre without music is still theatre and is still an art, I believe the same applies to flourishing. Or look at dancing. Who dances without music to dance to? For all intents and purposes, the idea of showcasing dance without music is absurd. Does that mean that dance is not an art, a form of self expression?
However, like theatre, which is often accompanied by music, and set design, and costumes, the experience can often be enhanced by the music. But just as theatre without music is still theatre and is still an art, I believe the same applies to flourishing. Or look at dancing. Who dances without music to dance to? For all intents and purposes, the idea of showcasing dance without music is absurd. Does that mean that dance is not an art, a form of self expression?
Good answers so far, besides shutting down MLB , I have been wanting to throw this question for some time.
By the way, this post is directed to Faded temp, Theatre head pretty much has the right idea.
The word art has been throwed down a lot of times around here: "the art of magic" " My art with cards" etc.
I have another question, some of you guys said that it was a "form of expression" my question is:
Expressing what?
Art means that you are expressing your feelings, a thought an idea using "something" (its a very poor definitition I may expand that later)
You can do that with Music, Poetry,Plastic arts, Dancing, Cinematography, Theather etc.
Can you express feelings with flourishing? I dont think so.
Can you make a flourish look sad? can you express love to someone by doing a anaconda?
Considering "Flourishes" art it's like considering Skateboarding, or doing tricks with a YO-YO. Art.
IF you disagree I would love to hear your thoughts.
I like the thought put into the question as well as the statement in general.
I'll do my best to try and get my point across but it's merely an opinion of how I feel, please don't take it to heart or let it offend any of you.
I feel that if anything like skateboarding and etc like you listed, is done properly - art can be found.
My example of this, is this video.
I don't feel like the actual acts themselves can be viewed as art under every circumstance but I do feel when presented in the right way, it is just as wonderful as a painting and can be as expressive. Can you show sadness in the flourish itself? No, perhaps not but can you display sadness in the way you perform the flourishes? I believe so and that's part of the art, not just the flourishes themselves.
People take things that are not viewed as art by themselves... such as sand - and by using their talents they create something amazing.
This is my reasoning as to why I feel flourishing can stand in the field of artform, I know this opens the possibilities for many other things to be considered the same but what's wrong with that? Granted, I know not everyone will agree or see things the way I do and perhaps how I feel doesn't follow the dictionary definition of Art - that's why it's an opinion though.
Same applyes to a very skillful Yo-Yo trickster.
We are going back to the beggining, in theatre ( in wich you easily know more than me) you are expressing yourself using your face your body as whole and of course music can enhance this just as the costumes and the scenery, but it CAN stand on its own, take a mime for example, they are acting, but they do not need music or scenery to make it an art, they can express desperation, sadness, good feelings and they also can tell a history (very important thing).
But yeah, I also agree, flourishing is using cards as an extention of your body and and yes it can portray a history or a feeling (there are visually stunning and beatiful flourishes out there, im not talking about pandora kind of things, im talking about fans and things of the like) with the right setting and the right mood.
But then again in my opinion I dont think it can stand on its own, yeah, its amasing to see a guy flourishing with great abilities but then again, its just showing off, performance, he is actually not expressing anything.
Of course I may be wrong about this
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Same applyes to a very skillful Yo-Yo trickster.
We are going back to the beggining, in theatre ( in wich you easily know more than me) you are expressing yourself using your face your body as whole and of course music can enhance this just as the costumes and the scenery, but it CAN stand on its own, take a mime for example, they are acting, but they do not need music or scenery to make it an art, they can express desperation, sadness, good feelings and they also can tell a history (very important thing).
But yeah, I also agree, flourishing is using cards as an extention of your body and and yes it can portray a history or a feeling (there are visually stunning and beatiful flourishes out there, im not talking about pandora kind of things, im talking about fans and things of the like) with the right setting and the right mood.
But then again in my opinion I dont think it can stand on its own, yeah, its amasing to see a guy flourishing with great abilities but then again, its just showing off, performance, he is actually not expressing anything.
Of course I may be wrong about this
RD - 99% of the people you see performing Flourishes probably are showing off. People that do flourishing videos, I feel the majority are simply showing off or want input on how they are progressing. However; I don't think it's fair to say that it can't stand on it's own simply because everyone prefers to go for fast/smooth flourishing instead of a soft tone.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/art
I don't see any reason why flourishing should have to stand on it's own just to be considered an artform.
If done properly, AND in the right mood and with the right companions, (btw the video that you showed me is a great example, great find) If I showed you the video alone, without the editing, or the music just the guy running around, jumping, doing backflips would you consider it art? As you say I dont think so, but yeah in the right mood it can be expressed and seen as art.
It's weird because in one of my classes they were defining the paintings and little sculptures that our ancestors (the first monkey kinda guys) made in the ceilings and in the sand and rock as art, so that video could be art witouth the music, its a a branch of the "plastic arts"(wich includes paintings, sculptures, photography, things of the like) technically speaking, that girl is doing painting, the only thing here is that she is using different things to paint.
Yes it does, but not on his own.
Again, I may be wrong about this, Im enjoying this discussion a lot, its been a while since I have seen a good discusion without the usual "suck my sponges!" in them
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If done properly, AND in the right mood and with the right companions, (btw the video that you showed me is a great example, great find) If I showed you the video alone, without the editing, or the music just the guy running around, jumping, doing backflips would you consider it art? As you say I dont think so, but yeah in the right mood it can be expressed and seen as art.
It's weird because in one of my classes they were defining the paintings and little sculptures that our ancestors (the first monkey kinda guys) made in the ceilings and in the sand and rock as art, so that video could be art witouth the music, its a a branch of the "plastic arts"(wich includes paintings, sculptures, photography, things of the like) technically speaking, that girl is doing painting, the only thing here is that she is using different things to paint.
Yes it does, but not on his own.
Again, I may be wrong about this, Im enjoying this discussion a lot, its been a while since I have seen a good discusion without the usual "suck my sponges!" in them
Again, my only real question is... Why does it have to stand on it's own? Who got to make the decision that if it's not on it's own, it fails to be art?
Its all about perspective, ask a a laymen or common guy the definition of art and he will probably say to you one of the 8 or 9 meanings in that link.
Ask the question to an artist, or to a guy that knows about art, and it's a diferent history.
Because flourishing alone, (witouth music, costume whatever you like) doesn't express anything, you are just moving cards around in a cool way( either if its smooth or fast its the same thing) .
In my opinion thats why flourishing alone can't be considered art.(on its own
)
Its all about perspective, ask a a laymen or common guy the definition of art and he will probably say to you one of the 8 or 9 meanings in tht link.
Ask the question to an artist, or to a guy that knows about art, and it's a diferent history.
Because flourishing alone, (witouth music, costume whatever you like) doesn't express anything, you are just moving cards around in a cool way( either if its smooth or fast its the same thing) .
In my opinion thats why flourishing alone can't be considered art.(on its own
How often do you see things that we consider art, being performed on their own - without support of other things like music? Why are we talking about flourishing, on it's own when we both know - people don't simply perform it without music or some type of mood being set.
and I agree with you, RD. It is all about perspective which is why this discussion will continue to go on, probably for as long as people keep flourishing in mind. That's simply how it is, I suppose.
As Praetoritevong said, theatre is often accompanied by either music, costumes etc TO ENHANCE IT, to make it better.
So yeah if you find a acting group doing theatre the best bet is that they are using music to ENHANCE the already art that they are expressing, they are already portraying and expressing something, they are ENHANCING that experience.
I know what your answer may be in this moment "Yeah, but Flourishing is also enhanced by music, therefore its art"
Yeah, but witouth the song, the people watching doesnt know if you are trying to express sadness, a feeling, or telling a history, you need music to enhance AND to set the mood and to help the flourishes to express something because then again, alone, they cannot.
Taking your example of
Theatre on its own, can express something.
As well as music, plastic arts or dancing.
The music and things you said that are accompanying those "arts" are just enhancing the experience, but they are not setting the mood nor are making them express something with what they are doing, because they already are.
I dont know if I made my point clear, if you dont feel like it was, just tell me.
I do see your point, I do. However; I don't find dancing as an art if performed without music - nor do I feel that way about Theatre, simply my opinion though. I don't think it's impossible to display emotions by flourishing and I do think it's possible to show it's an art without having any music to enchance it. Granted, as stated several times before - this is all a discussion on a matter of differing opinions, there is no set rule on what is and is not an art, neither of us have the right to say 100% one is and is not an artform because art is what you make of it, it's what you see as an individual - it wont be the same for everyone and that's what makes it so wonderful, that's why I feel leaving flourishing out of the art field simply isn't right.
MMM.......
When I see a video proving me wrong I will shut my mouth
.Until then, everybody is untittled to his own opinion and I respect that.
MMM.......
When I see a video proving me wrong I will shut my mouth
Until then, everybody is untittled to his own opinion and I respect that.
I'm not trying to shut your mouth, I don't really care if your views change or not. You asked me what I thought and wanted to know my views, so I told you. It's nothing more than that and I wont lose sleep over you feeling differently then me.
Nah man, sorry I didnt meant it that way, I thank you for expressing your opinion I actually learnt a lot today, thanks.
Sorry if that sounded offensive, it was not my intention
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Nah man, sorry I didnt meant it that way, I thank you for expressing your opinion I actually learnt a lot today, thanks.
Sorry if that sounded offensive, it was not my intention
No, you're fine. I didn't find anything you said offensive - simply saying haha.
I want to hear from some other people and see what they have to bring to the table.
i just agree with kenneth's post on the 1st page. i think leon will leave UC too if MLB followed him to the hive.
dude.
dude.
You say its not just showing off,but you cant tell people that at the same time your flourishing cant you? It doesnt matter what you say,but what we see.
And all we see is masterbatory card manipulation.Never in the last 5 years have I seen ANYONE flourish in an artistic way or for people.
(EVERYONE THINK ABOUT THIS)
Any one can say that about anything.
The #1 rule in any performance art is "Show me,Dont tell me".
Dont tell us its art.Show us.And as it stands no one has done that. I dont see art in that.
So for now..your all just showing off.
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Im pretty sure if some XCM people rubbed two brain cells together they could add actual drama to a flourishing sequence.
But apparently all the can do is sit in front of a camera and be mute.
Magic is art because magic is theatre.
But it seems these new street magic kids took all the drama out and left an uninteresting mess of 'cool' tricks.
But it seems these new street magic kids took all the drama out and left an uninteresting mess of 'cool' tricks.
