Is Cardistry just "Showing Off"?

[praetoritevong]

Faded, RD, one of the better discussions I've seen on here for a while. I'm at uni so I won't stay long, except to add and reiterate my previous example of dance: It's unheard of, at least for me, to have dance without sound or some sort of musical accompaniment. I think it's fair to say that dance doesn't stand on its own. Even if we push it towards the field of acrobatics...

What does dance express without music? I think that the two are practically symbiotic.

 

[TheatreHead]

Faded, RD, one of the better discussions I've seen on here for a while. I'm at uni so I won't stay long, except to add and reiterate my previous example of dance: It's unheard of, at least for me, to have dance without sound or some sort of musical accompaniment. I think it's fair to say that dance doesn't stand on its own. Even if we push it towards the field of acrobatics...

What does dance express without music? I think that the two are practically symbiotic.

I think you meant dance was parasitical, because symbiosis means that both sides are relying on each other, and music definitely doesn't rely on dance. And I don't think dancing relies on music either.

I've seen some stomp and tap routines that had no music whatsoever. Just clapping and stomping, purely rhythm based. And they were powerful pieces, both of them were based on war. But yeah, it can stand by itself, though it hardly does.

 

[praetoritevong]

Sorry, that made sense in my head.

The idea I meant to convey was this: Dance enhances the music and the music enhances the dance.

All in the context of dance.

I hope that made sense. My bad, thanks for that.

 

[arilusion]

What is card magic without Flourish?

Flourish is what brought me into the realm of magic. Today, I use it as a visual art display in between my tricks. Sort of like a commercial break in a 30 minute show.

That is of course, if I'm messing with cards the whole show. Through my observation, card flourishes captivates people the same level as a magic performance will. Because the audience will never know what will be next. That sort of mystery have a sense of captivation, as far as my performances is concerned, that is unique to their experience.

It can also be a substitute to exposing magic tricks if someone bugs you to teach them your magic tricks. Trust me, it works better than shredding them of by saying "I do magic, I dont do miracles..." ect. Flourish has an important role in modern card magic, those who dont appreciate its existence will never uncover its hidden potential of entertainment value.

 

[JetEyeNight]

I do consider XCM showing off, as there are DVDs themselves called "Show off" or "Show off with Cards".

I believe that you can make anything an art. Take that sand animation video that was posted a short while back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=518XP8prwZo

Sand drawing on it's own, I don't consider an art, but when animation and music were put into it, along came emotion and it became a true art.

I don't mind performing XMC without it being art. I do it because it looks cool, I enjoy doing it, I like showing off my juggling skills, and people find it entertaining. Not everything has to be Earth-shatteringly deep art for it to be entertaining or fun.

XCM and Cardistry can be an art, just like Juggling can be an art.... take this video for example....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feshsgfluxg&feature=related

I find that to be art.

I think we could make Cardistry an art and XCM an art if we put the same type of soul and creativity into it. I think there should be a project on theory11, a contest, to actually have it's members create artistic cardistry videos, not just montages or collaborations of different flourishes, with background music.

I do believe that dancing can be an art and things can be an art without music, however they are enhanced by music. Some arts can only be expressed with music.

Personally I don't care whether or not you find it an art...it's fun on it's own.

 

[TheatreHead]

Flourish is what brought me into the realm of magic. Today, I use it as a visual art display in between my tricks. Sort of like a commercial break in a 30 minute show.

That is of course, if I'm messing with cards the whole show. Through my observation, card flourishes captivates people the same level as a magic performance will. Because the audience will never know what will be next. That sort of mystery have a sense of captivation, as far as my performances is concerned, that is unique to their experience.

It can also be a substitute to exposing magic tricks if someone bugs you to teach them your magic tricks. Trust me, it works better than shredding them of by saying "I do magic, I dont do miracles..." ect. Flourish has an important role in modern card magic, those who dont appreciate its existence will never uncover its hidden potential of entertainment value.

I'm not sure if i can agree with your point about it being important. I think you can have a show equally entertaining for your audience whether or not you have flourishes in it.

I personally hold back on flourishing, because it takes from the magic. I want my audience to be as stunned as possible, I want the only thought in their mind to be "How did he do that?" I don't want them thinking, "Damn, that guy is smooth with cards."

 

[TheatreHead]

I do consider XCM showing off, as there are DVDs themselves called "Show off" or "Show off with Cards".

I believe that you can make anything an art. Take that sand animation video that was posted a short while back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=518XP8prwZo

Sand drawing on it's own, I don't consider an art, but when animation and music were put into it, along came emotion and it became a true art.

I don't mind performing XMC without it being art. I do it because it looks cool, I enjoy doing it, I like showing off my juggling skills, and people find it entertaining. Not everything has to be Earth-shatteringly deep art for it to be entertaining or fun.

XCM and Cardistry can be an art, just like Juggling can be an art.... take this video for example....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feshsgfluxg&feature=related

I find that to be art.

I think we could make Cardistry an art and XCM an art if we put the same type of soul and creativity into it. I think there should be a project on theory11, a contest, to actually have it's members create artistic cardistry videos, not just montages or collaborations of different flourishes, with background music.

I do believe that dancing can be an art and things can be an art without music, however they are enhanced by music. Some arts can only be expressed with music.

Personally I don't care whether or not you find it an art...it's fun on it's own.

that video was a beautiful piece. But if you took the music away, would it still be impacting?

I don't think juggling can stand alone as an artform.

 

[praetoritevong]

Flourish is what brought me into the realm of magic. Today, I use it as a visual art display in between my tricks. Sort of like a commercial break in a 30 minute show.

That is of course, if I'm messing with cards the whole show. Through my observation, card flourishes captivates people the same level as a magic performance will. Because the audience will never know what will be next. That sort of mystery have a sense of captivation, as far as my performances is concerned, that is unique to their experience.

It can also be a substitute to exposing magic tricks if someone bugs you to teach them your magic tricks. Trust me, it works better than shredding them of by saying "I do magic, I dont do miracles..." ect. Flourish has an important role in modern card magic, those who dont appreciate its existence will never uncover its hidden potential of entertainment value.

I completely disagree with the idea that flourishing is necessary to reach magic's hidden potential, so to speak - and the entire body of work of guys like Vernon, Marlo, and modern guys like Vigil, and Ricky Jay, stand testament to that. Whilst I'm arguing here for flourishing being an art, I feel that it has potential of a vastly different type to magic. Namely - magic lends itself much more naturally to emotional hooks and the experience of the impossible - rather than expression or skill. But good magic doesn't need embellishments of skill - they're two entirely different reactions, if performed properly.

Theatrehead - what about dance?

 

[TheatreHead]

Theatrehead - what about dance?

I've seen some stomp and tap routines that had no music whatsoever. Just clapping and stomping, purely rhythm based. And they were powerful pieces, both of them were based on war. But yeah, it can stand by itself, though it hardly does.

Like I said, it's very rare, but from what I've seen, I definitely consider it as an artform.

 

[praetoritevong]

I would argue that tap would be an exception to the rule because in doing so, you are, in essence, creating music. Now imagine tap, but as a deaf person. No sounds - take the self-created music away per se - as though you were taking away the orchestra or the sound systems - now is what you are left with still art?

This is a fun conversation actually. Keep the ideas coming guys.

 

[TheatreHead]

I would argue that tap would be an exception to the rule because in doing so, you are, in essence, creating music. Now imagine tap, but as a deaf person. No sounds - take the self-created music away per se - as though you were taking away the orchestra or the sound systems - now is what you are left with still art?

This is a fun conversation actually. Keep the ideas coming guys.

tapping isn't music. There are two things I'm more passionate about then magic, and one of them is music. tapping cannot, by any proper definition of music, be defined as music.

and that is an excellent poin. no, i don't think a deaf person would be able to view a tap sequence and see it as a work of art. but they wouldn't be able to consider music as an art either, since they can't hear it.

sound is a part of tap dancing, as much as it is a part of music.
but this is a bit specific.

I'm going to pull martial arts into this, because i consider it an art form. they have a system called "forms" or "katas", which is a demonstration of moves, usually performed by one person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q77p16rEX7o

watch it without the sound, i consider that art. not everyone does, but I do.
back to the original point, dancing can stand alone as an art form, but when put to music, it becomes much stronger and meaningful.

 

[FadedTemp]

I would argue that tap would be an exception to the rule because in doing so, you are, in essence, creating music. Now imagine tap, but as a deaf person. No sounds - take the self-created music away per se - as though you were taking away the orchestra or the sound systems - now is what you are left with still art?

This is a fun conversation actually. Keep the ideas coming guys.

I'm glad to see that this conversation is still going. I put some thought in this while I was out and about. I do still feel that what others view as art and what they don't, is based on perspective.

I was thinking about musical instruments and symphony's - I realize that in most circumstances, a single musical instrument can't stand on it's own. When brought together though - it creates something amazing.

That's the only thought I wanted to share, for now.

 

[TheatreHead]

I'm glad to see that this conversation is still going. I put some thought in this while I was out and about. I do still feel that what others view as art and what they don't, is based on perspective.

I was thinking about musical instruments and symphony's - I realize that in most circumstances, a single musical instrument can't stand on it's own. When brought together though - it creates something amazing.

That's the only thought I wanted to share, for now.

most musical instruments actually can stand on their own. you'd be hard pressed to find an instrument, that isn't a percussion instrument, that is completely dependant on other insturments to form music.

Of course, many more doors are opened when playing with more instruments, but a single instrument by itself can easily stand alone.

-piano
-guitar
-voice
-violin
-flute
etc.

you could take any single instrument (apart from the percussion instruments) out of an orchestra, and it could stand by itself.

 

[FadedTemp]

most musical instruments actually can stand on their own. you'd be hard pressed to find an instrument, that isn't a percussion instrument, that is completely dependant on other insturments to form music.

Of course, many more doors are opened when playing with more instruments, but a single instrument by itself can easily stand alone.

-piano
-guitar
-voice
-violin
-flute
etc.

you could take any single instrument (apart from the percussion instruments) out of an orchestra, and it could stand by itself.

I somewhat disagree with you. I've been play Alto and Tenor Saxophone for roughly 10 years now and when outside of a group, it's viewed completely different by others. There isn't much music that I can play as a single Sax player that will make people amazed unless I do my scales at an incredible speed.

Oboe is another instrument that isn't very pleasing to listen to when taken out of a group.

Tuba, Trombone, Trumpet and French Horn are also instruments which I feel are much better suited inside a group, outside of it - I don't get any enjoyment out of it.

 

[Geekmumblings]

Yes it's an art but whats wrong with showing off, if you have put in the practice and effort, then why not demonstrate your skills.

 

[visualartist]

Its still going on..people saying its art. And once again,I say show me dont tell me.
The only people who even talk about it as an art are flourishers themselves.
Artforms have to be acknowledged by other people besides the ones that do it.

(Read my firsts post here)

 

[visualartist]

Yes it's an art but whats wrong with showing off, .

Show me its an art form.Dont tell me.

 

[FadedTemp]

Its still going on..people saying its art. And once again,I say show me dont tell me.
The only people who even talk about it as an art are flourishers themselves.
Artforms have to be acknowledged by other people besides the ones that do it.

(Read my firsts post here)

Thankfully, you don't get to decide for everyone. Whether you view it as an art is your opinion, luckly I live in a world where I am allowed to have my own. It's obvious a simple discussion isn't enough to please you, you need visual proof of some sort - so I guess everyone here looking for a discussion will just overlook your comments like they have been.

 

[UnknownMagician93]

Good answers so far , besides shutting down MLB , I have been wanting to throw this question for some time.

By the way, this post is directed to Faded temp, Theatre head pretty much has the right idea.

The word art has been throwed down a lot of times around here: "the art of magic" " My art with cards" etc.

I have another question, some of you guys said that it was a "form of expression" my question is:

Expressing what?

Art means that you are expressing your feelings, a thought an idea using "something" (its a very poor definitition I may expand that later)

You can do that with Music, Poetry,Plastic arts, Dancing, Cinematography, Theather etc.

Can you express feelings with flourishing? I dont think so.

Can you make a flourish look sad? can you express love to someone by doing a anaconda?

Considering "Flourishes" art it's like considering Skateboarding, or doing tricks with a YO-YO. Art.

IF you disagree I would love to hear your thoughts.

With flourishes by themselves,one may not be able to express themselves but through a combination of everything that goes into a flourish video, yes they can. The speed, rythm, music, style, etc. all says something about the flourisher.

I dont think someone will be going super fast and have heavy metal music if they are in a secluded, somewhat sad mood.

 

[KeoSilver]

Is writing an art form that can stand on its own?

Standby for my real opinion the above question is just to add thought.