Is Cardistry just "Showing Off"?

[formula]

That's kind of disrespecting. Maybe you are saying something that already got owned on page 6 or... I don't know.

That's just plan arrogant, if you want to make a point or contribute something to the thread I suggest you read what others have to say first.

"Something that already got owned"...maybe I made a mistake thinking this forum is for me, I am not looking to discuss things with people who act like 13yr old halo playing d&d loving children.

You may call me arrogant for saying that cardistry has elements of showing off but if you're in so much denial that you're 100% ignorant to the elements of showing off in this "art" then there really is no room for discussing.

Maybe it's because you lack experience and are one of those new youtube flourishers that has no real world knowledge but if you flourish in public, people will call you a show off, unless you're rubbish in which case you'll be laughed at like a boy wearing nail varnish.

I guess thats my time up, won't bother with this site.

 

[RDChopper]

"Something that already got owned"...maybe I made a mistake thinking this forum is for me, I am not looking to discuss things with people who act like 13yr old halo playing d&d loving children.

You may call me arrogant for saying that cardistry has elements of showing off but if you're in so much denial that you're 100% ignorant to the elements of showing off in this "art" then there really is no room for discussing.

Maybe it's because you lack experience and are one of those new youtube flourishers that has no real world knowledge but if you flourish in public, people will call you a show off, unless you're rubbish in which case you'll be laughed at like a boy wearing nail varnish.

I guess thats my time up, won't bother with this site.

HAHAHAHA, no man, I liked your point, what I found disrespecting was that you didn't care to read all other replys.

 

[praetoritevong]

Hey, leave my Halo out of this!

Next thing you know my WoW will be the next to go

 

[Sk8r_St3v3]

Man how I hate it when people use dictionary definitions for something as specific as magic as a performance art. Little heads up, Dictionaries are written by english scholars and not by the ones that are actual artists. Last time I checked, people with a phd in English are not Modern day Mozarts.

If you are actually going to attempt to debate, bring your own actual thoughts and opinions and not ones fabricated by hairless apes locked in a room.

The reason i posted the definitions previously is because that is the exact reason they are there. To provide a solid guideline behind a word or phrase. I have posted in other threads about my actual thoughts and opinions regarding this matter and all it does is fuel more conflict.

English Scholars are English Scholars for a reason, because they study literature, and language and how words and phrases relate to all forms of practice, and the definitions and meanings behind them.

The definition of a word is best coined by somebody who has spent their life studying the language in which [the word] was born, and therefore they describe the meaning of the word in all its different forms. An artist cannot best describe the word or phrase for their practice because it is a biased opinion, as they take part and spend their life doing the thing in question, which can mean they are prone to coin it with a subjective opinion that does not account for all the other meanings and faces to the subject/word in question.

Secondly, i was using the definitions to reinforce the fact that Cardistry and flourishing has just as much a right of being named an art as magic or parkour or film making, or writing or dance; the list goes on....

I posted those definitions to provide some sort of a base of fact to the debate, as things were getting a little to orientated upon opinions.

Art is something that involves a visual practice or production aimed to entertain, capture and display emotions, experiences, opinions or taste, it is not something that can be categorised. That is my own personal definition on art and even though i say it can not be categorised, it can be described through definitions, however they have to be loose ones like those that i originally posted.

I feared they would draw a response like this, but i posted them because flourishing is just as much an art as magic, yet in different ways. However they still claim right to be aesthetically classed, due to their fundamental charecteristics.

 

[praetoritevong]

So... Who gets to define art then, the artists, or the viewers/participants?

This, I fear, is an inconclusive and impossible debate.

I think the comment a few pages back on the difficulty of giving meaning to cardistry are amongst the most important and insightful to this question and represents one of the biggest barriers.

 

[Sk8r_St3v3]

My way of looking at it : the artists define the definition of their art by what they do and how they do it. But for a core definition/term behind it you can not ask an artists because there are so many branches and variations of art as a whole that it would be a hopelessly broad description.

However i do agree that it is a very hard subject to completely clarify in a just way. To undermine what i said in my previous post, art is what you want it to be, and no matter who defines it, how it is portrayed or what it stands for, it all boils down to your opinion.

 

[KeoSilver]

My way of looking at it : the artists define the definition of their art by what they do and how they do it.

That was my point, English scholars may have the book smarts but they do not have the common sense that actual practitioners of an art have. This one point is why I dismissed the dictionary definition in the first place. Fine, you can call cardistry an art, go for it I really do not care, just like the laymen who are outside of the cardistry community. It isn't an art to them. Just like skateboarding, people within the skateboarding community view their spins and kick flips as an art, while others call it noise, destructive behavior, and in general a nuisance.

In conclusion like it has been said many times before me posting this, art is to broad of a term to be going off of a dictionary definition. You seem to agree as well, which makes it even more puzzling to me why you didn't just say that in the first place instead of doing this:

Copy dictionary definition. (paste it here) I rest my case.

 

[MagicLemonBird]

THIS is a thread which could go on forever, people in general will never agree that cardistry is an art. Kind of like the debate on whether God is existent. You guys could keep on arguing and branching off until you question "english scholars" and end with the answer on how the universe started. I'll still recognize cardistry as an art.

And by the way, MOST of these posts on the last 2 pages (RDC especially and KeoSilver) are made by magicians who perform cardistry for finger strength and the sake of learning a few moves "here and there". You guys aren't the ones who have dedicated your time all your "card time" (for lack of a better term LOL) as this. Your strongest fields are in magic (cards, coins, etc.), so when you are asked to make a DESCISION this humongoginormous and imput your opinion into this thread it is NOT clear and definite.

Here's an example; say you knew NOTHING about music. You see a guitarist on the street playing the.......guitar. From a quick glance (IF YOU KNEW NOTHING) you would probably say "thats cool" but your perspective would be decieved and you wouldn't know the time it takes to perfect the playing, how to correctly strum a chord, and all the things that make it an art.
"Oh....thats cool" - is exactly what most of you guys are saying.....because you do not comprehend the complexity and that cardists display cardistry as an artform.

To all those other RDC and KeoSilver that are likewise to them: What experience, what evidence, what proof can you give me that tells me that you understand cardistry and that you are intelligent enough to STRONGLY WITHOUT AT DOUBT criticize others and give your opinion on this subject?

 

[KeoSilver]

Holy **** **** lemon bird! I think thrice already I have explained that people within a certain art, consider what they do as art to them! It isn't a question onto whether or not we fail to see what time is spent into cardistry and flourishing, because to be honest that argument is stupid since I myself pour a **** load of time into the perfection of magical presentation something I do not expect anyone other then myself to appreciate. That is what separates me from you, I do not care if people recognize what I do as an art! I let my actions speak for themselves and leave my participants and other magicians in some cases, to think what they like.

You're pitching the idea that because we are not writers of fiction, we can't criticize the works of Stephenie Meyer Author of Twilight because we haven't put in the work she has. That is utter BS and I call you on it. We can talk about cardistry all we want, we can talk about theory all we want, we do not have to be scholarly in the subject to participate.

 

[MagicLemonBird]

Holy **** **** lemon bird! I think thrice already I have explained that people within a certain art, consider what they do as art to them! It isn't a question onto whether or not we fail to see what time is spent into cardistry and flourishing, because to be honest that argument is stupid since I myself pour a **** load of time into the perfection of magical presentation something I do not expect anyone other then myself to appreciate. That is what separates me from you, I do not care if people recognize what I do as an art! I let my actions speak for themselves and leave my participants and other magicians in some cases, to think what they like.

You're pitching the idea that because we are not writers of fiction, we can't criticize the works of Stephenie Meyer Author of Twilight because we haven't put in the work she has. That is utter BS and I call you on it. We can talk about cardistry all we want, we can talk about theory all we want, we do not have to be scholarly in the subject to participate.

Yeah if you read my post you would've realized that I said this

I'll still recognize cardistry as an art.

The real difference between you and me is that I care enough about my art to explain to you. And I don't think you took away anything from my post, because you would've realized to stop talking by now. Because you can't apply any knowledge to this case. This topic has been....off topic and you are the main contributer.

Is writing an art? Even from a writer? Art is not applicable by this because its not. If so then I can say that paving a driveway is an art from a contractor. Although enjoyable, not EVERYTHING is an art.

we do not have to be scholarly in the subject to participate

are you serious??? then you might as well say that a mathematician does not have to have skills to solve math.

Oh yeah and by the way......take your own words and apply it to this situation. Remember this? Yeah well I guess you didn't. Hypocrit

More like eye to shin, don't push it and be happy with your cardistry and what not. You have nothing to prove to the community and you he has nothing to prove to you

 

[KeoSilver]

Yeah if you read my post you would've realized that I said this

"I'll still recognize cardistry as an art."

*Facepalms or is it facepaws*

"I think thrice already I have explained that people within a certain art, consider what they do as art to them! "

I am agreeing that yes! You see it as an art form, others don't! Moving on.

The real difference between you and me is that I care enough about my art to explain to you. And I don't think you took away anything from my post, because you would've realized to stop talking by now. Because you can't apply any knowledge to this case. This topic has been....off topic and you are the main contributer.

Well here let me stop ya from hurting yourself thinking to hard. I did take something away from your post and I analyzed it and now I am replying to it, a second time around. I also thank you for giving me all the credit of stimulating thought in an old thread. I am afraid however I am not the only, or as you put it main contributor, in the thread that is being thought provoking. Also, why do you care what I think about cardistry, you've already said I am not a cardist and am not Knowledgeable on the subject of it? However, I do admit I am not an expert on the subject, and I have a suspicion that you are not either.

I dare you to say you are an expert on the subject of Cardistry.

I don't think it is an art Augustus, and I never really will.

Is writing an art? Even from a writer? Art is not applicable by this because its not. If so then I can say that paving a driveway is an art from a contractor. Although enjoyable, not EVERYTHING is an art.

Writing is most definitely an art form, just like painting. However, juggling and cardistry is more like paving a road, as you said, then painting. Why? It's a trade skill which painting, sculpting is actually an art form.


are you serious??? then you might as well say that a mathematician does not have to have skills to solve math.

You're splitting hairs and you are not even doing it well. I don't have to be a mathematician to do math so yeah I am serious, we don't have to be scholarly in the subject to do math. Or debate the idea onto whether or not cardistry is an art form or not.

Oh yeah and by the way......take your own words and apply it to this situation. Remember this? Yeah well I guess you didn't. Hypocrit

Hypocrite, spell it right. My quote that you quoted is

"More like eye to shin, don't push it and be happy with your cardistry and what not. You have nothing to prove to the community and you [sic] he has nothing to prove to you."

I am not quite sure how this quote has any relevance to the conversation at paw, unless you are trying to take an elitist POV and if that is so I laugh at you hardcore, but I will submit to you a shortened version of my initial reply that is applicable to the conversation now. "...don't push it and be happy with your cardistry...You have nothing to prove..." to me now. Yeah, I get it you're passionate about something. Congrats you and thousands of others on this site are exactly the same, oh great one of cardistry.

 

[praetoritevong]

THIS is a thread which could go on forever, people in general will never agree that cardistry is an art. Kind of like the debate on whether God is existent. You guys could keep on arguing and branching off until you question "english scholars" and end with the answer on how the universe started. I'll still recognize cardistry as an art.

And by the way, MOST of these posts on the last 2 pages (RDC especially and KeoSilver) are made by magicians who perform cardistry for finger strength and the sake of learning a few moves "here and there". You guys aren't the ones who have dedicated your time all your "card time" (for lack of a better term LOL) as this. Your strongest fields are in magic (cards, coins, etc.), so when you are asked to make a DESCISION this humongoginormous and imput your opinion into this thread it is NOT clear and definite.

Here's an example; say you knew NOTHING about music. You see a guitarist on the street playing the.......guitar. From a quick glance (IF YOU KNEW NOTHING) you would probably say "thats cool" but your perspective would be decieved and you wouldn't know the time it takes to perfect the playing, how to correctly strum a chord, and all the things that make it an art.
"Oh....thats cool" - is exactly what most of you guys are saying.....because you do not comprehend the complexity and that cardists display cardistry as an artform.

To all those other RDC and KeoSilver that are likewise to them: What experience, what evidence, what proof can you give me that tells me that you understand cardistry and that you are intelligent enough to STRONGLY WITHOUT AT DOUBT criticize others and give your opinion on this subject?

MLB, I do agree that you have a point. I'd be one of those people. As far as experience goes - I have very little except for what I have seen and experienced, but it still gives me the right to an opinion. It doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong - but if compared to the opinion of an experienced cardist, I agree that it may well carry less weight. Nonetheless, art is of course subjective. And, I think by nature, everyone has a right to define art - not just artists, but the spectators and participants as well. I can appreciate the Duchamp perspective, but I think it goes a bit further than that.

As far as evidence and proof - that, or the lack thereof, can be deduced from my arguments. If, from your experience, I or anyone else am far off the mark, then there you go. I don't mind being called out on it if I have made a mistake, personally. But if my argument is strong, then by the same token, there you go.

As far as intelligence - take it from my other posts on this forum, and this thread, because, to be honest, we're on a relatively anonymous internet forum, so you're free to make up your own mind as to whether we and our arguments are intelligent enough to warrant consideration.

And as for the actual question of art... Well, yes, I agree, but I'm also interested in your opinion. The example you gave is faulty - I don't think time invested and proper technique in and of themselves constitute art necessarily. What comes to mind, for example, is exam taking technique - a lot of my life taken up - but as far from an art as I could imagine.

What I am particularly interested though is your perspective on Randomwrath's excellent post on page 12 - he says, paraphrased, that it is difficult to convey meaning in cardistry. This to my mind is one of the biggest arguments against cardistry being an art. You addressed his post, but not this point, which I think is very important. What do you think?

 

[Sk8r_St3v3]

In conclusion like it has been said many times before me posting this, art is to broad of a term to be going off of a dictionary definition. You seem to agree as well, which makes it even more puzzling to me why you didn't just say that in the first place instead of doing this:

Well i guess at the time i didnt feel like writing out a long response. What i was trying to get at with my points was that the practitioners of things that may or may not be art can define whether or not it is so only by their own opinion. Whereas art as a general term, can be defined very simply, in my opinion, with the definitions i posted. I guess i only posted them to save time but that didnt seem to work eh

 

[RDChopper]

THIS is a thread which could go on forever, people in general will never agree that cardistry is an art. Kind of like the debate on whether God is existent. You guys could keep on arguing and branching off until you question "english scholars" and end with the answer on how the universe started. I'll still recognize cardistry as an art.

And by the way, MOST of these posts on the last 2 pages (RDC especially and KeoSilver) are made by magicians who perform cardistry for finger strength and the sake of learning a few moves "here and there". You guys aren't the ones who have dedicated your time all your "card time" (for lack of a better term LOL) as this. Your strongest fields are in magic (cards, coins, etc.), so when you are asked to make a DESCISION this humongoginormous and imput your opinion into this thread it is NOT clear and definite.

Jesus christ, Unlike you, I believe I have done more for cardistry than you, I already apeared on TV doing strictly flourishes and explaining things such as the difference between XCM and cardistry, two handed cuts, one handed cuts, spreads and things of the like.

What have YOU done? you only semi quasi practice at your home and you post stupid youtube videos of you talking pure S####. Yeah, great way of improving cardistry and exposing the art to the laymen.

Im too lazy to post photos of the tv program, but if you have facebook, add me. there are there. search me as raul dominguez.

Next time keep your mouth shut.

P.S Sorry to the forum for the sudden burst of cool rage, but this guy just asks for it.

 

[MagicLemonBird]

Jesus christ, Unlike you, I believe I have done more for cardistry than you, I already apeared on TV doing strictly flourishes and explaining things such as the difference between XCM and cardistry, two handed cuts, one handed cuts, spreads and things of the like.

What have YOU done? you only semi quasi practice at your home and you post stupid youtube videos of you talking pure S####. Yeah, great way of improving cardistry and exposing the art to the laymen.

Im too lazy to post photos of the tv program, but if you have facebook, add me. there are there. search me as raul dominguez.

Next time keep your mouth shut.

P.S Sorry to the forum for the sudden burst of cool rage, but this guy just asks for it.

According to you, i post "stupid videos" on youtube, so that means that you post "stupid videos on youtube", so does that mean that all the cardistry videos on youtube are "stupid"? So someone like max vlassanko posts stupid videos on youtube?

No, these videos are to just show the cardistry world your progress, performance, and level. What you're trying to make me posting videos on youtube negative and give the image that I'm a ****in guy who masterbates with cards. Ummmmm no, I also believe that cardistry is meant for laymen, so just because I haven't been on television yet doesn't mean that I don't hold these opinions.

Alright well I congratulate you for your television performance. But just because you have been in cardistry longer doesn't mean that you are better or have the right to be so arrogant. What is wrong with you? And then what have you done for the cardistry community except pick and make victims of specific people? No I'm not going to keep my mouth shut to people as ridiculous as you.

People like you are the reason why I don't enjoy these forums much. And I thought you'd be a little disciplined after your banishment. Is that too much to ask?

And no, why would I want to add you on facebook if we don't get along here? I really think you should start considering a battle to end this. If you want, PM me and we'll have one on U.C, because people here are too biased towards you just because you have a high post count and act arrogant.
Cliche but "you can talk the talk but can't walk the walk".

KEOSILVER: Was there a point in......pointing out that my spelling was wrong? It's one word.....relax, just because I can't spell one word doesn't mean I am illiterate.

RDC: Why don't you talk a look at my signature in the yellow. Don't worry its not just you, this problem has been existent since the snake tempted eve to eat from the tree of knowledge.

RDC: Don't worry, I'll rise up higher in life than you.....you're 19 I'm 13. A 6 year difference....I'm not even 14 (age which is required to get a job) so I suggest you stop comparing your life to a 13 years old who has achieved much more than you when you were his age.

 

[Randomwrath]

Guys, normally I don't care that much, but this is a really interesting topic and if it resorts to flaming, bashing and general NON TOPIC RELATED arguments, a puppy somewhere will die, and you don't want that on your conscience. Trust me. So let's keep it friendly, yeah?

 

[MagicLemonBird]

Guys, normally I don't care that much, but this is a really interesting topic and if it resorts to flaming, bashing and general NON TOPIC RELATED arguments, a puppy somewhere will die, and you don't want that on your conscience. Trust me. So let's keep it friendly, yeah?

Well I'm trying to be friendly but as RDC said to me and I will say to him "he asks for it". I don't dwell and hide in the perimeters of these cyber-walls. So if he believes that he has contributed more than I why not settle it in a friendly battle?......or try to be friendly.

 

[Kaj]

This topic reminds me of Brian Tudor's "Show off" series.

Sure, it's show off. But it is a way of performing to someone.
If you combine flourishing with magic you can do all the sleights you want right under their nose unlike usual sleights where you need to make 'em look somewhere else while you do the move. It's typical that a laymen doesn't understand what's happening when doing these flourishes.

So sure, it's showing off but it's also another style of magic performence (if you also do magic). Some prefer telling a lot of jokes to get eye contact so there is time for the off-beat while doing a sleight. Other may like doing it fast and direct.

This is just how I see it. I personally just like doing flourishes. Mostly just for myself and try not to get too much attention to myself, and therefore don't do it while too many are around.

 

[praetoritevong]

Well I'm trying to be friendly but as RDC said to me and I will say to him "he asks for it". I don't dwell and hide in the perimeters of these cyber-walls. So if he believes that he has contributed more than I why not settle it in a friendly battle?......or try to be friendly.

Then don't try to be friendly, and focus on contributing. Starting with my question would be nice.

Also - don't blame RDC for comparing himself to you. You were the one who tried to call him out on lack of experience first, so don't be surprised he's biting back. That aside, this really isn't the place for personal battles, and I won't go into dissecting any posts, although there's plenty that could be said.

 

[RDChopper]

According to you, i post "stupid videos" on youtube, so that means that you post "stupid videos on youtube", so does that mean that all the cardistry videos on youtube are "stupid"? So someone like max vlassanko posts stupid videos on youtube?

I recall seeing several videos on your account where the only thing you do is talk. And show your bird.

You even showed a video of you just talking and your bird, and you even posted in the forums.

Unless you are huron, it will not work.

No, these videos are to just show the cardistry world your progress, performance, and level. What you're trying to make me posting videos on youtube negative and give the image that I'm a ****in guy who masterbates with cards. Ummmmm no, I also believe that cardistry is meant for laymen, so just because I haven't been on television yet doesn't mean that I don't hold these opinions.

Then show me progress and a video of you performing for laypeople and enterteining them and I will be happy

Alright well I congratulate you for your television performance. But just because you have been in cardistry longer doesn't mean that you are better or have the right to be so arrogant. What is wrong with you? And then what have you done for the cardistry community except pick and make victims of specific people? No I'm not going to keep my mouth shut to people as ridiculous as you.

I´m not arrogant, I´m pretty sure that you are better than me, but the thing is, I like to call the things just the way I see them, nothing more nothing less. If my points of view offend you and you don´t have a mature way of telling me other way, then don´t log online

People like you are the reason why I don't enjoy these forums much. And I thought you'd be a little disciplined after your banishment. Is that too much to ask?

Discipline? Jbayme is not my mother, he is a cool dude with a cool magic company and forum, that´s all. BTW don´t talk about things you do not know.

I really think you should start considering a battle to end this. If you want, PM me and we'll have one on U.C, because people here are too biased towards you just because you have a high post count and act arrogant.
Cliche but "you can talk the talk but can't walk the walk".

HAHAHAHAH "Battle to end this" hahahahaha, Lil dude, you are not my nemesis, I do not use my whole week thinking of ways to "end you". If you are better or if you are not (most probably you are) I actually don't care . I actually like to bash you because of your pompous and inmature ways young padawan .

RDC: Why don't you talk a look at my signature in the yellow.

Why would I talk with your signature?

RDC: Don't worry, I'll rise up higher in life than you.....you're 19 I'm 13. A 6 year difference....I'm not even 14 (age which is required to get a job) so I suggest you stop comparing your life to a 13 years old who has achieved much more than you when you were his age.

Yeah, If that makes you feel better then great . I´m sure you will achieve great things in life.

*Taps little boy´s head